The cradle and the cresent, p.23. The Order of Seuleman is shocked that the crysaders have come to the holy land:
They sent representatives to meet
with and spy on the European wizards
who had come over, and were surprised to
learn that most of them were immune to
their Solomonic magic, much in the same
way that spirits, caliphs, and holy men
had always been able to resist them. Others attacked the invaders, fighting with the
Muslim armies against the magi, but those
sahirs who met magi directly in battle
were quickly defeated, and many of them
were slain.
Indicating that Hermetic Magi were being confronted with the crusaders.
The thing is, interfering with the mundanes is only a problem if it can create problems for other magi. In other words, taking part as a crusader vs Constantinople is a huge problem. Taking part as a crusader in the Levant, prior to the Order of Hermes establishing a tribunal, it shouldn't be a problem because there is no one to complain about it.
This does not indicate that the order of hermes supported the crusades.
It indicates that individual magi went with the crusaders, presumably because said individual magi were crusaders themselves. IMO there is a pretty significant difference between individual magi going on crusade and the order of hermes acting as an institution to support the crusades.
Note that support is ambiguous in the sense that we have both used it. It can mean either that the order of hermes supported pope Urban II politically in his attempt to stir up support for the idea of going on a crusade or it could mean that the order of hermes provided things like supplies, manpower or other forms of practical aid for the military campaign that ensued.
The thing is that it wasn't as though the crusaders in the 4th crusade left with the intention of sacking Constantinople- they were planning on going to the levant, which makes ir questionable why he would make plans for going to Constantinople.
For the purposes of the question asked- whether the order considered interfering with religious organizations or the church as separate from mundanes the fact that magi could pledge themselves to the church where they cannot pledge themselves or their service to mundane authorities is significant support for the idea that the church is considered supernatural rather than mundane. The degree of support (individual magi offering assistance as crusaders versus political involvement of the order on a policy level) is a difference of degree, not of the fundamental issue as to whether participation was allowed or occurred.
Regarding interfering with Mundanes, My read of the degree of "interference" is that it is heavily informed by the Peripheral Code. Ironically, in some places like England, the tribunal is inquorate most years, making punishing Magi and Covenants more difficult.
See HoH:TL pg 51
“I will not interfere with the affairs of mundanes and thereby bring ruin upon my sodales”
The majority of the Founders wished to avoid entanglement in mundane conflicts. Therefore magi are forbidden from significant involvement in mundane politics, whether of the nobility or the Church.
In particular magi need to avoid supporting one faction of mundanes against another. Such support is likely to encourage the other side to seek similar aid. If such requests are refused it may result in hostility, forcing magi to defend themselves. Hermetic magic is not the only type of magic in Mythic Europe and so even highly secretive assistance may be discovered.
Regardless of the Order’s capacity to defend itself, most magi wish to quietly pursue their Arts, not govern kingdoms and fight in endless wars. The Order wishes to maintain strict neutrality in mundane politics and any act that undermines this may be an offense.
Conflict may arise directly between a magus and a particular noble or clergyman. As long as the magus does not form an alliance with his enemy’s rivals he will not be in breach of this provision. However, he can still be charged with endangering the Order if his actions bring wrath down on other magi.
Over this provision there is much debate both within the Order and House Guernicus. In some Tribunals it is virtually ignored, and on this issue much of the Traditionalist/Transitionalist disagreement occurs. The Transitionalists argue that provision is already effectively unenforceable; it should be recast to suit the times. A new provision could be enforced, the abuses punished and the benign activities legalized. In the current situation both are ignored. Traditionalists disagree, of course.
If his actions bring wrath down on other magi. How do you prove that, though? Especially considering how the Caliph's army might call on sahirs regardless of whether hermetic magi come into the fray? This is non-canonic, but in my game, I've had a grand tribunal ruling that said participation in crusades was explicitly legal, provided one of the three following conditions were met:
It's outside the borders of an established tribunal;
Hedge wizards are assisting enemy forces;
There is no covenant within 500km of where the fighting is done.
The basic idea is that the non-interference clause is there to protect magi, not third parties.
Roleplaying the trial? Adding a characteristic and an ability and the roll of a stress die and comparing it to an ease factor (or to a similar roll by the prosecutor)?
Remember that this is RPG. We have mechanics to solve situations like these for a reason!
Yes, sure, I know how to run a trial. My point was that trying to put a charge like that on a magi is close to futile unless you can demonstrate a cause and effect. If you take part in the crusade against Jerusalem, and a covenant in the Levant Tribunal gets burned by the attacked army in the following year... yeah, there might be a case. If you do it before the Levant Tribunal exists, the chances of any consequences befalling fellow magi being tied into your individual action is almost zero, and I would love to see a prosecutor try to even gather evidence sufficient to justify a trial.
Thanks, I thought so, too. In a sense, that is the one moment in time where events create the butterfly effect contributing to the mess of the entangling alliances of Europe which was late 19C/20C Europe... possibly combined with the aftermath of the Teutoberger Wald in 9AD. I really loved the idea of it. There's at least one pretty good book on those four sisters, too.
How do they know the Muspelli even exist? The Muspelli are, by and large, lone, isolated practicioners in a distant land with limited ambition beyond their immediate spaces...very possibly a fading tradition due to the active elimination of the Asgard/Jotun faith in the region
And they don't really have a structure or an organization to drive the Brotherhood at...
It seems like a big tool for a localized issue.
With that said, I would recommend picking up The Amber Crusade from Alphetar Press, if you can, as that's roleplaying in that crusade and really good stuff for such a saga.
With that said, I would recommend picking up The Amber Crusade from Alphetar Press, if you can, as that's roleplaying in that crusade and really good stuff for such a saga.
A late seconding of this product I have a copy aquired on Amazon last year and it has been excellent material for planning a game in the baltic. A good complement for the 4th edition Ars magica supplement, the only issue is occasional poor editting
In a sense, that is the one moment in time where events create the butterfly effect contributing to the mess of the entangling alliances of Europe which was late 19C/20C Europe... possibly combined with the aftermath of the Teutoberger Wald in 9AD. I really loved the idea of it. There's at least one pretty good book on those four sisters, too. 