Unbalanced to let Bjornaer magi have familiars?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
42

Because the implication was there. Familiars are not helpful or not very helpful in a number of circumstances (Certamen, Fatigue use, Sensory Magic, writing). That happens to have enormous overlap with where Bjornaer shine. So if we're looking at how big a drawback not having a Familiar is, we're ignoring a good portion of the categories where Bjornaer shine. If we ignore a good portion of where Bjornaer shine, of course they'll be much worse.

Not really, just very early on. Bear just gives you an earlier start than rabbit does.

Not really. Time, yes. Vis and Warping Points are unnecessary. Flaws are only if you decide you really want them for some reason; there's no need at all for them.

Yup. The point is none given the same time and resources can be as a good as a Bjornaer in the areas in which Bjornaer shine. I.e. they have niches where they are the best as a result of Heartbeast and despite the loss of a Familiar.

Yes and no. And that was my point above. If this is the issue, then we're back to asking why the Bjornaer needs to be potentially better at everything? Verditius can be the best at crafting items, Bjornaer can be the best at Certamen and Fatigue use and Sensory Magic and writing, Criamon can be the best at lore and Twilight, etc. Many Houses are just average at everything but lack drawbacks, so you can tailor them broadly, but rarely to be truly the best at something.

What would you say to someone who takes Mercurian Magic because they want a Ritual caster and then complain about how weak being limited to Ceremonial Spontaneous Magic is? You can be the best at something by being worse in other areas.

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43

As a new player I would like to know how, is it "spend a long time raising your Bjornaer Lore ability"?

edit: genuinely curious, not being snarky or anything!

44

You raise your Bjornaer Lore, go on adventure, or correspond with someone to serve as a Mystagogue (the one who conducts the Initiation), and then they set you on some Quest, or guide you on what needs to be done to complete it, and at the end of it, they perform a ceremony that grants you the Initiation. Some of them do involve taking on Flaws as part of the script, but not all.

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That wasn't what I was asking for clarification on. I was asking for clarification on callen saying that the only thing you have to spend is time, while Vis, Warping Points and Flaws are unnecessary, with Flaws in particular being described with "no need at all for them"

46

Not for the Refinements of your Inner Heartbeast. No Mystagogue involved for them - self-initiation only.
And the spending of vis and accruement of warping points is pretty much mandatory in the script given, and there doesn't really seem to be a practical option for a whole different script.
You usually have to add some extra elements (like getting Flaws) to get a high enough script bonus.

47

The base is already substantial enough that you can start adding Qualities pretty easily, especially with the right type of Inner Heartbeast and especially with the past Ordeal bonus from getting into Inner Heartbeast in the first place. Then the extra Presence gets you even more. No need for any beyond that initial Flaw.

As for Warping and Vis, they are part of the same element. You can modify a script to remove an element.

48

In general yes.
The initiation for Innner Heartbeast Refinements is more than a little bit special though. (You learn it automatically; The same embryonic script can be used for all the Refinements)
Personally I'd rule that you can't remove elements from it, not without having to create a new script from scratch.

50

Nobody here has ignored that point, on the contrary it has been brought up and discussed.

Besides, your statement that someone going through a different initiation ritual would not be a member of House Bjornaer is not correct.
See the story seed on p.27 in HoH:MC.

52

Indeed. That point has been made already, by several posters, with none objecting. Then the discussion moved on to other problems.

It is a fact that Bjornær are very unattractive to play in many sagas, because the downtime play of lab achievements is dominating the game, and players of other houses are allowed to min/max familiars to optimise that line of play, which the Bjornær cannot do. That problem remains unsolved. Even though solutions have been proposed, it is not clear that they are feasible in every troupe. When nobody speaks warmly for solving the problem by allowing Bjornær familiars, it is exactly because your concerns are duly noted.

53

If you read the whole of the story seed, the last part of it is that since all those mundanes so initiated are now part of House Bjornaer, what are the House going to do with them.
So clearly even those initiated by variants of the Ritual of Twelve Years are considered Bjornaer.
(Incidentally, the variation of the Titual of Twelve Years used in the story seed is one where the Ordeal of "unable to bind familiar" has been replaced for something suitable for mundanes.)

You claim that allowing familiars would greatly change the character and nature of House Bjornaer.
Would it really? And how would it change the House?
I can't see any part of their beliefs or traditions that would need to be changed just because they could have familiars.

54

Considering this is one of very few initiation scripts that explicitly mention varying the script, I find it an enormous stretch to consider that the canonical rules for varying a script would not apply to it. If you don't allow the rules for varying scripts to apply to a script that explicitly says you can vary it, to what scripts should they apply?

Of course, you are welcome to house-rule that away. But that would a house rule that makes Bjornaer weaker in one particular way.

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The House doesn't want but grudgingly accepts them, because the Heartbeast is its criterium for membership. Their life in the House will likely be miserable.
Think Cinderella or

56

The script explicitly mentions adding stuff to it to increase the script bonus since as given it includes neither Quest nor Ordeal.
If one can remove the vis part from the script, then I would expect absolutely everyone using the script to do so, since the vis only gives a +1 bonus which is really not worth that amount of vis plus a warping point. But in that case, why even include the vis part in the first place?

57

Removing a component is difficult (EF 15), so that's probably the main reason why it would be left in by many. Adding components is easier, and makes it possible to achieve the mysteries with only a high score in the cult lore, as opposed to exceptionally high. Therefore, it is reasonable to address adding components, as what a lot of magi would need. A min/max-ed PC, however, will need fewer components, and probably have specialised to be able to make fully custom scripts. The point here is that RAW is quite consistently written not to assume min/max-ing, and need to be read from that perspective.

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On top of the inherent difficulty loke mentioned, you can only make one change. If you can only make one change and you need a higher result, then you cannot remove the vis.

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If the answer to "is it unbalanced to let Bjornaer have familiars?" is "it depends, because there is this one min/max build you can do to equal or outstrip having a familiar but otherwise no because they're very powerful" then that's very disappointing, mostly because that's boring for familiars to be so strong that everyone will get one and they'll all trend towards the same characteristics and abilities.

From what you more experienced people are saying it seems like part of the issue is that getting stuff out of a familiar is very straightforward but getting the most out of being a Bjornaer is not. The familiar's bonuses can be enjoyed largely passively for the numbers-go-up part of the game, whereas getting the most out of being a Bjornaer involves leveraging your strengths actively and having the SG help you engage with the mystery cult stuff, not only initiation (for the listed stuff and also new scripts without requiring the player to invent them) but the other benefits of being a close-knit family for stories and adventures.

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60

That's not really what I am saying. The problem is not that players do not know how to min/max a Bjornar, but that they get too much freedom to min/max the familar. When players design their familiar as an extension of the magus, we get a lot of familiars with +3 Int and whatnot. If the familiars are designed as characters to be roleplayed, as RAW encourages, they will generate more story material and smaller lab bonus. That's when Bjornær is not so disadvantaged.

There is, of course, another issue, which is harder to deal with, although some troupes manage very well. If you play Bjornær magi, you need Bjornar stories. If you play stories mainly as disruptions from the labwork, The typical Bjornar is disadvantaged much more than Bonisagus and Verditius lab rats. However, many houses seem outright boring to play unless the stories are tailored to advance their life goals.

So the answer is, «it depends, because there is this one line of play that you can do, where having a min/max-ed familiar is alpha and omega».

Of course, if that's the line you want to play, you are right to be disappointed.

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61

Ultimately, here is what the problem seems to boil down to: If you allow Bjornaer to have Familiars, then Bjornaer is essentially always the best House, mechanically speaking, to choose if you won't want particular Mysteries from one of the Mystery Cult Houses. Do we really want 67% of magi's players thinking from a mechanical standpoint 'I should have chosen a Bjornaer'?

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The main problem. from a "power/best House" perspective, seems to be the combination of familiar and Inner Heartbeast and its powers. Additionally some of the Powers you can add to the Inner Heartbeast by Refinements has a lot of overlap with the powers you can imbue a familiar with, making me think most people will pick one or the other.
So I am thinking of moving the point of no familiar rather than just removing that prohibition.

What do people think about the following as a house rule?:




The Ritual of Twelve Years does not prevent getting a familiar. Instead it it includes a -3 penalty to all types of shapechanging of humans and animals except when done through the Heartbeast, reflecting the general attitude of House Bjornaer towards shapeshifters.

The inwards focus of power needed to initiate the Inner Heartbest is incompatible with the outwards focus used with a familiar. Therefore nobody who currently have a familiar can go through the Inner Heartbeast initation, and once one has obtained the Inner Heartbeast they are forever after unable to bind a familiar.
The loss of familiar replaces the current Major Ordeal for Inner Heartbeast.




Comments:
The penalty to shapechanging is mostly there for flavour, although in some circumstances it can of course be an actual problem.

This change would force a Bjornaer magus to eventually which path to Ultimate Power(tm) they want to follow - the Inner Heartbeast path, or a more standard path for hermetic magi.

We know that some magi Bjornaer are not really interested in the whole ancestor worship thing and instead follow other paths - like the Huntress of the Woods. For them using a familiar would likely be the more comfortable path.

This will also add a bit of tension to House Bjornaer, where those magi who have an Inner Heartbeast will no doubt grouch about those who choose to bind a familiar as "not real Bjornaer." They will generally not be allowed to tell the magi with familiars why it is a bad idea though - you are not supposed to even find out that it is possible to initiate into the Inner Heartbeast until you have a score in House Bjornaer Lore of at least 5. There will no doubt be vague warnings given to young magi Bjornaer that they should avoid binding a familiar - warnings which will no doubt be ignored by many of the same young magi.

It will also add a minor bit of story potential for those characters who bind a familiar and then afterwards find about the Inner Heartbeast. Keeping the familiar, or severing the ties to the familiar and delve deeper into the Bjornaer mysteries? While characters may be surprised by this, players will of course know about the choice well in advance and can plan accordingly.

Overall this should not make a Bjornaer magus significantly more powerful, but it will give players a bit more choice in how to develop their Bjornaer magus.

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63

Actually, I find this to be specifically a buff to the Bjornaer, as giving up the right to a familiar (which they had not had access to in the past) in exchange for the inner heartbeast is a non-ordeal.

This wouldn't do much, it would only even vaguely affect MuCoAn mages...

I should say that on the whole, I do not find that the Bjornaer are missing out so much by not having a familiar and do not see a great need to correct this.