Undercutting the Mercere

[ezzelino]

One really good point that was made in the discussion above was the conservative view of many hermetic magi. I can see many an archmagus thinking "Hey, it will cost me two rooks instead of just eleven pawns, but it comes from Mercere's - safe and confidential delivery since 777!". So I think that, although the covenant will have its niche, it will not be able to steal more than, say, 50% of Mercere's "market" in the Rhine, possibly less.

Another point that one of my players raised was that House Mercere seems to be heavily decentralized, with individual Mercer Houses, and even individual members, having a lot of latitude and sometimes competing with each other.

These two factors together probably mean that House Mercere's reaction, at least in my saga, will be slow and not particularly aggressive. I also think it would be really, really bad publicity for house Mercere if they tried to punish other magi - and even moreso their own members - for excelling at the duty which should be the mission of the House.

[gerg]

@Xavi

... use our eats-man-of-dude-lying-in-front-of-it on him ...

[Xavi]

I was just being dramatic And also made a typo
But we have had several auto-enchantments in the nearby area of our covenants before. This one existed in a previous saga, and was a stone lion that would eat your hand if you told a direct lie (or answered a question untruthfully) when having your hand in his mouth.

Cheers,
Xavi

[Ravenscroft]

@Xavi

But we have had several auto-enchantments in the nearby area of our covenants before.

come-hombre-de-dude-mentira-en-frente-de-lo via Google , still looks like some kind of Fellatio service.

[Saxonous]

Well, Ezzelino, the Merceres would probably have that reputation, except for the fact that they do what they do because they are the "crippled kids". Their house lost "The Gift" and did this so they could still help the Order. A group that has the Gift, such as your covenant, looks small and petty, because they should be doing "big", epic things. Remember, Mythic Medieval Europe thinks about these things differently. There's a reason why Jews are the big business men of the day, and if your covenant acts like them, they'll probably be treated like them.....

[Halancar]

@ezzelino

3. The means are nothing extraordinary; just a healthy assortment of magic. House Mercere could certainly do it too. The covenant can deliver letters and small parcels within the day using "teleportation", bulkier stuff within a few days by flying ship (no, it does not use magnetized sand ). Loans with collateral are made at a 10% yearly interest, and vis is traded with approximately a 20% spread (in other words, let's say Aquam and Animal vis have about the same availability and demand, you can "buy" a rook of Aquam for 11 pawn of Animal and "sell" it for 9).

If you read up HoH - TL, p.80, House Mercere once had a very large network of Mercere Portals, linking pretty much every major covenant. Instant transport. Then came the Schism War, and it turned out that those portals could also deliver a strike force of battle mages right in the middle of said covenants, with no warning. And allow a counter attack just as fast, if they lost. After that, most of those portals were taken down at the request of the host covenants.

Just to say that allowing teleportation to within one's covenant's Aegis is considered a big no-no, and parcel arriving outside raise additional security issues... and should the Order be ready once more for covenant-to-covenant teleportation, the Merceres are still the only one who know how to erect full portals.

[ezzelino]

@Halancar

Just to say that allowing teleportation to within one's covenant's Aegis is considered a big no-no,

I completely agree.

@Halancar

and parcel arriving outside raise additional security issues...

Such as? This sounds interesting...

@Halancar

and should the Order be ready once more for covenant-to-covenant teleportation, the Merceres are still the only one who know how to erect full portals.

Meh ... there are many alternatives to Mercere portals.

[Timothy_Ferguson]

@Kid Gloves

All that said, I think the 2:1 vis trading if not combined with a stronger 'friendly' presence by the Mercere is practically asking to be undercut - even if it is just between a couple of allied covenants engaged in private trade. If the Mercere instead engage in visible generosity, vis-paid work contracts, cheap second-hand item trade, book trade, etc. then the covenant in question may well not want to lose access to those by annoying the redcaps.

In the setting. the Tremere magi don't trade for vis with the Mercere, they trade with the House strategic reserve. I doubt its 2:1 although no rate is given, except that you pay back loans of vis on a 1:1 basis. It doesn't seem to make the Mercere rabid haters.

[Halancar]

@ezzelino

@Halancar

and parcel arriving outside raise additional security issues...

Such as? This sounds interesting...

Well, unless you make sure you have a magus present to receive it, it could be stolen. Having a grog might not be enough to prevent it (as I understand it, in the Normandy Tribunal it would even be legal. And in other Tribunals, the victim would still have to find the guilty party and prove their involvement). So you need schedules, and someone willing to spend some time ready to receive it. Except at this point you have a magus who is scheduled to be outside the Aegis, at a specific point and a specific time. Also, your organization needs arcane connection, preferably permanent, to positions near every covenant, so people have to trust you not to abuse them. And to keep them secure. And depending on the connection, someone might be able to move the other part of the connection and have the parcel or message teleported directly to him.

Besides, what self-respecting magus wants to spend an hour each day delivering (even if he never leaves his sanctum) someone else's mail ?

As I've said before, I think the biggest thing the Merceres have going for them, at least when it comes to delivering messages, is that they have been doing that for centuries and have proven dedicated and reliable. Undercutting their prices (and it only cost a bit of silver, which magi don't really care much about), or even besting their quality of service, just is not enough to compete. As for the vis trade, there you could probably compete, at least on a local level.

[ezzelino]

@Halancar

@ezzelino

@Halancar

and parcel arriving outside raise additional security issues...

Such as? This sounds interesting...

Well, unless you make sure you have a magus present to receive it, it could be stolen. Having a grog might not be enough to prevent it (as I understand it, in the Normandy Tribunal it would even be legal. And in other Tribunals, the victim would still have to find the guilty party and prove their involvement). So you need schedules, and someone willing to spend some time ready to receive it. Except at this point you have a magus who is scheduled to be outside the Aegis, at a specific point and a specific time. Also, your organization needs arcane connection, preferably permanent, to positions near every covenant, so people have to trust you not to abuse them. And to keep them secure. And depending on the connection, someone might be able to move the other part of the connection and have the parcel or message teleported directly to him.

Besides, what self-respecting magus wants to spend an hour each day delivering (even if he never leaves his sanctum) someone else's mail ?

Actually, if you teleport a grog with the parcel to just outside the Aegis, it's at least as secure - if not more - than having a Redcap walk all the way there. And I doubt that even in Normandy you can assault another's magus grogs and steal the magus' stuff from them; it's certainly a violation of the Code (robbing the other magus of his magical power).

[DIREWOLF75]

3. The means are nothing extraordinary; just a healthy assortment of magic. House Mercere could certainly do it too. The covenant can deliver letters and small parcels within the day using "teleportation", bulkier stuff within a few days by flying ship (no, it does not use magnetized sand

Lol...

Anyway, using arcane connections you could "easily" set up a post office, where a single magi daily casts a standardised spell to pick up anything left at each local "mailbox", sorts it and then casts a delivery spell for anything needing to be sent.
All thats needed is a safe "mailbox" at or close to each place that wants access to the system.

But, honestly, pretty much every other covenant in the Rhine was at least mildly interested - wouldn't yours be in your saga?

Interested, probably yes. Switch to it? Hmm, not as certain. Mercere is a known quantity, and very reliable.

One really good point that was made in the discussion above was the conservative view of many hermetic magi. I can see many an archmagus thinking "Hey, it will cost me two rooks instead of just eleven pawns, but it comes from Mercere's - safe and confidential delivery since 777!". So I think that, although the covenant will have its niche, it will not be able to steal more than, say, 50% of Mercere's "market" in the Rhine, possibly less.

Less i would bet. It might even be limited to just handling their own traffic to and from other covenants.
And might end up forced to do that as Mercere might say that "well hey, you´re doing your own thing, no need for us" and shut the covenant out.

[Christian_Andersen (Christian Rosenkjaer Andersen)]

@Ravenscroft

@Xavi

But we have had several auto-enchantments in the nearby area of our covenants before.

come-hombre-de-dude-mentira-en-frente-de-lo via Google , still looks like some kind of Fellatio service.

Let's not start to wonder whether brancing out into this will actually further or hamper the succes of the rivals to the Redcaps....

[Cornelius (Simon Cornelius)]

Perhaps Mr Chart and Atlas need to commission a book on Redcaps and other aspects of the Order ("On the Order of Hermes - OOOH). In this tome explanations can be provided as to why things, such as the Redcaps, are as they are. Perhaps alternatives could be suggested. The coverage of the Redcap service could be explored.

[Kid_Gloves]

I don't see an issue, and I don't really see House Mercere having an issue with other magi doing vis trading 'under their noses'

From my understanding of the Order, House Mercere are the only ones who have a good idea both where all the various covenants are and are perfectly capable of getting their hands on large amounts of vis of all techniques and forms easily.

Secondly, House Mercere have a proven track record of secrecy. They let you register your vis sources with them, as well as details about how to get to your covenant, and in return they collect your messages, inform you of news and offer vis, books, items, etc. for trade. They do all this without revealing either your or your covenant's location to any passing random who asks.

For the security-conscious magus, House Mercere offers an easy means of engaging in trade with other covenants - both for books and vis - without revealing your actual location or details of how to breach your defenses to the other covenant in question. It also doesn't prohibit trade in vis using the Redcaps as carriers - if I want to send 20p of vim vis to that covenant over there, and then expect to get 20p of aquam vis back, I can send it via Redcap. The Redcap will guarantee safe and secure delivery of the vis - it is what they do.

Where House Mercere shines is when the covenants doing 'local scale' vis trade run out. When you want another 5 pawns of aquam vis and the others just don't have it, you turn to House Mercere and pay their rates.

I figure the House has no issue with this. There are more than enough magi who want specific vis and don't know anyone personally who can supply it. In many cases, trading 1t:1f works out fine for the magus in question - and in many covenants I can't imagine the 1t=2f rule applying internally.

Throw in the Mercere 'charity' and usage of vis for the benefit of the tribunal and order as a whole (as opposed to simply giving it as massive vis salaries to their board of directors), and I can't imagine the house caring any more than they do about House Tremere not making use of their vis trade services.

Of course, if the House's vis income drops below their expenditure, you can expect to see less charity. The political ramifications of that would mirror many modern political issues, combined with the fact that actions which reduce the amount of charity in the world could well be construed as greedy and sinful.