Unknown Cargo: Character Design

Map:
euratlas.com/time2.htm

If your saga is better that way use Greek.
Just please note this is a house rule in behalf of people who like history. :slight_smile:

Many covenants pull grogs and other covenfolk from across the width and breadth of Europe, so a covenant in the Balkans with a mostly-Greek staff is perfectly believable, lots of reasonable explanations. Small, isolated communities tend to keep their cultural and linguistic identity, regardless of what goes on beyond their walls.

I am taking history into account here-- the part you cut is this:

For this half of the Mediterranean, Greek was the Latin of the area. If you wanted the language of trade and effective communication across the eastern Med, you spoke greek. Would the covenfolk or locals speak Slavonic? Certainly. But your educated specialists are going to be trained at Constantinople...where they speak greek. They might be trained in Italy, but the Byzantine church held sway in the area far longer than Rome, so I think it's far more likely that your educated people (who run the covenant) will be conducting business in greek.

Latin had grown in prominence in the late 12th century, as Hungary shifted from the Byzantine church to the Roman Church, and written magyar is based on the roman alphabet, so I don't doubt that noble correspondence was done in slavonic...but Byzantine Church documents would be in greek as much as Roman Church documents were in Latin.

So, I am basing this idea on history. It's not as if I'm just willy-nilly saying, "Hey, I like the idea that they spoke greek better than the idea that they spoke slavonic." The greek language has a pedigree in the area by imperial and religious ties, and was established as the language of the educated elite. It is something to consider in behalf of people who like history. :wink:

-Ben.

OK, some background info:

The "Byzantine Empire" never occupied Wallachia so their borders never reached the Carpathian Mountains.
The region is part of Middle Europe and not the Mediterraneum.
It doesn't mean how many orthodox priests learned Greek, the people didn't. That's the same issue like Latin and catholics.
Btw Slavs used Slavonic and not Greek.
Latin was the ceremonial language of the catholic Church in Transylvania where Coeris is found. Orthodox religion had only some traces here after ~1030. Hungary never shifted the church orientation but in the 10th century both the eastern and western Christianity converted in the country. Stephen I choosed the catholic religion in 997. In the 13th century more and more Vlach settlers appeared in Transylvania. So they reintroduced the the orthodox religion, too.

I suggested 3 suitable languages, however neither of them is Slavonic.
If you choose a language or mix I can help you to find a right place for Coeris or if you choose a place I can tell you the language of the locals.

Covenants are able to bring settlers as they wish, of course.
An alternative Europe saga may introduce Greek settlers in the area of the Transylvanian tribunal, too. It's not bad. Only unhistoric.

I know they speak Slavonic, I mentioned how I would be unsurprised if the covenfolk spoke Slavonic rather than Greek.

But my idea that Greek would be the covenant language is not un-historic. It depends on where you put Coeris. If it's in the Southern Carpathians, perhaps on the Danube river valley side, then Greek is a plausible option. I provided sources last time we talked about this; in fact,this is pretty much the same debate we had last time.

The part you acknowledge and then discard is the fact that in that part of the world Greek was the language of the educated.

Who runs the covenant? The educated people, who'll likely want a language they all have in common, which, if they were educated in the largest urban center nearby, which would be Constantinople, the dominant language would be...Greek! Who would be teaching initial reading and writing to apprentices? Probably the same specialists.

If the covenant wants easy trade with the biggest source of quality materials in the area, which is again-- Constantinople, they're going to want to speak Greek. That trade is going to be a lot easier than trying to get to any of the other major urban centers in the area, with a quick hike down to the Danube, then out to the Black Sea compared to long hikes over mountainous terrain.

Now, if you've got Coeris further north, more towards Germany and (what would become) Poland, or more towards central Hungary, then yes, Greek makes little sense. However, the fact that HoH:TL states that Coeris is built on the Gate of Eurydice almost implies that it is in an area influenced by or involved with Greek culture. That's another point to consider. Why would a site in a more germanic area reference a hellenic myth?

Not only that, but HoH:TL mentions how the Byzantines invaded Hungary and Bulgaria 20 times in the 12C...so while Constantinople may never have "occupied" Wallachia, they obviously had some considerable influence in the area.

Personally, you pick what you want, but I don't think it's fair to say that the option of Greek is historically inaccurate. There's plenty of history that supports such a choice.

-Ben.

*unofficially renames this thread "Unknown Language: History Design" :wink:

Slavs used Slavonic during orthodox church ceremonies.
But I would be very surprized if the covenfolk would speak Slavonic. But even Slavonic sounds better than Greek.

I found the place of the Transylvanian Alps (official site of Coeris): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Carpathians

Has the Gate of Eurydice a traditional site in the mithology?
Maybe the author confused the mountains, too. Sorry, but I cannot get rpg books seriously in historic questions.

I've read your citation. It states the strong influence of other languages in the "Byzantine Empire" e.g. the Vlach who played an important role in the history of the area. It also states he is not dare to assume Greek diasporas here.

:smiley: I never said "Byzantines" had no influence to the area.

So maybe from NY (New York?) Greek seems appropriate as the language of the common folk but I live far closer to this area and perhaps I studied more the local history.

And something to the topic:

If you choose the Vlach (today: Romanian) nationality they speak a Roman language and it sounds belivable if the covenfolk speak a more Latinized version. This way you cannot bother with this Pseudo-Latin.

"Eastern European" nationality sounds silly, anyway. :wink:

Somewhere (way up above, somewhere after this probably should have become a separate thread, ahem), the original question seems to have been forgotten, that the topic was regarding a starting character's native tongue, the one they learn from "the folks around them" as they grew up to age 5.

That would not tend to be "the educated" nor "the specialists", a distinct minority in any covenant, but the grogs who are the majority. So, it is a question of where those grogs came from, and that can be almost anywhere, and any-how, even to have been moved en masse from a completely different part of Europe.

It would be entirely reasonable to have the magi speaking Latin, the "educated" specialists speaking Greek, and the grogs speaking some other tongue - but a "Covenant Upbringing" would result in the latter.

Given the description under the Virtue "Covenant Upbringing", (which is what started this discussion), it's pretty clear that if "the educated" were allowed to provide that native tongue, then ~proper~ Latin would not have been excluded.

(As you were.)