Unravelling the Fabric of [Form] - problems

Note that you can use arcane connections and sympathetic materials for this spell - which will likely be one that the magi in question plan for. As such, it's probably not too difficult to get even a temporary arcane connection to the covenant, as well as its 'casual name' (whether or not it has a secret or True Name is likely up for debate) - plus a miniature model of the place. That'll be probably a x2 arcane connection, with +3 sympathetic bonuses on top of it. So someone with Penetration of 2(Vim) can get an extra +15 out of it.

Of course, this assumes that arcane connections to the covenant can be used to target the aegis protecting the covenant; I would assume so, but your troupe and/or gamemaster may not agree. What else would you use to target a spell? AC's to the caster? Eh, maybe...

An AC to the covenant is not an AC to the Aegis. I'm in the no camp on this.

Double story potential to get one of those tokens: not only does the Aegis then no longer resist your disspelling, but you also automatically have them as an AC to the Aegis!

Remember, the token are relatively mundane things, which might be able to be stolen by a grog/thief/other character. I haven't really seen PC covenants detailing the defenses against the stealing of tokens like they detail the defence of the covenant against external attackers... Exciting stuff! :slight_smile:

It's somewhat unlikely that tokens will be unguarded, because this suggests that Magi don't understand that tokens are ACs to the Aegis for the covenant. That's a point against easy theft. A point for easy theft, is that they are otherwise useless unless someone who participated in the ritual hands it out. What defines participation isn't described in detail, and is up to the troupe. In my own understanding though, I'd say that only magi and perhaps a few trusted members of the covenant (seneschal or steward types)...

There is a much easier way to get some stuff to bypass an Aegis: items. Just hide the item somewhere on covenant grounds and wait until the next Aegis has been cast. The Aegis will now not resist the item. Of course, it's not so hard to get huge penetration in some items anyway. But this still works for those non-Hermetics who would otherwise have trouble getting past the Aegis.

Oh, I'm not saying they're unguarded... but most of the PC covenants I've seen never really thought of the inherent risk of handing out these tokens, let alone what they actually are, or where they are kept. Generally, as a GM, I'd assume they are as well protected as either the mundane or the magical treasures of the covenant (depending on how many Vim experts there are in the covenant), but nothing beyond that.

Certainly, but this is definitely something that their characters should know, even if the players don't consider the strategic implications of their character's actions. Making a GM ruling on this happenstance smells of gotcha GM'ing. Now pointing out a situation and asking how the players would handle it and they chose not to handle it? Hey, it's fair game. I just don't like the style of gaming where people (players or SGs) spring things on the table that they've noticed, but waited to drop until an opportune (for them personally) time.

Ah yes, I don't want to go down that route as well. Which is why the tokens are kept with the other treasures. All of which can of course be stolen for a good story :slight_smile:


Why not? Especially for something particularly connected to the Aegis, say, a chip of stone from a Boundary marker?

If we argue that the Form of the Aegis is Vim, and there's no connection to this Form, then ACs for Mentem spells are pretty much impossible, and a person's favorite shirt isn't an AC to him either, unless it's made from his own hair, etc.



I always assumed that an AC can be an AC to only one thing at a time. In part because of the text in ArM5 stating that AC must be carefully stored lest they become AC to something else. In part because, if something is an AC to two different things ... what happens when you cast a spell at R:Arc using it? Do you target both? Neither?


So, let's assume you are correct, that it is an AC to one thing at a time: The covenant. It works just fine for multiple applications: I can use it to teleport into the covenant, scry on the covenant, rain fire upon the covenant, and remove the Aegis from the covenant.

That said, I'm not sure this is completely true. Suppose I pluck a ribbon from the town charter of Wherever. Is it an AC to the physical charter? To the town of Wherever? To the craftsman who so masterfully made the ribbon? I think Yes. But... if I hold onto it long enough, it becomes an AC to my collection of ACs instead.



Almost. You can use it to remove the covenant from the Aegis, not the other way round :slight_smile:

There already exist ACs to the Aegis of the Hearth, the tokens to be used to grant access.

An AC is normally a connection to a specific thing, usually something it was closely attached to. An AC to something in the covenant is an AC to that thing in the covenant.

The example of the ribbon attached to the charter might be an AC to all three, I would first ascertain what it has the greatest connection to, either based on time or theme and then attach it to only one thing.

I'd say it depends; in some sense the "strongest" connection "overwrites" the others. That's the reason why, if you keep it in your AC collection long enough, it does not become an AC to your collection, too, but an AC to your collection, and that's it, thereby losing much of its value.

In this case, it's probably an AC to the charter, though depending on the craftsman and the crafting process, it could be an AC to him instead.


I'm not certain you can have an AC to an entire covenant, though. You have an AC to a place or a thing inside of the covenant, but it's not all of the covenant.


It would have to be a pretty good AC, I'd agree. A random clump of dirt, no. But the covenant's charter? A piece of the tower's cornerstone or the council table? Maybe.



The spell Unraveling the Fabric of Vim has a Target of individual, that would be individual spell, not the physical location. If you were going to use an arcane connection from within the covenant grounds, presumably you would have to use a boundary Target, which adds another four magnitudes to the spell

Now, the idea that the casting token is an Arcane connection to the spell is reasonable, but it doesn't address the other issue, why does this magus think he comes out ahead annoying a whole covenant? I can see a wildly powerful magi deciding to bully a weak covenant with a few young members, but dispelling the Aegis makes everyone in that covenant mad at them. Why would anyone think that is a good strategy unless they had overwhelming strength to bear?


No. The size of the AC has nothing to do with the thing it's an AC too. Thing X might not actually be a suitable AC, but if it is, the spell remains the same.



The presumption was that this is irrelevant, for instance because they are already mad. Dispelling the Aegis would be something you'd really only consider during a Wizard's War or the like, when someone is hiding inside a covenant with sodales, who presumably do not want to turn him out. Granted, at this point it starts to resemble a case of three little pigs and a big bad wolf, but so be it. :slight_smile: