Unravelling the Fabric of Ignem in combat

A character in my saga created a Unravelling the Fabric of Ignem (PeIg20) to counter the threat from a rogue Flambeau and I am unclear about a few things with this type of item in combat

Do items go off during the combat phase or the Magic Phase? I have always played that they went off in the Combat phase did but I don't see reference to it in the 4th ed book, other than thier Initiative is Qik + Stress Die.

To help clear my confusion I have listed a few senerios I was hoping someone might confirm or correct.

-------------Defense Item------------------------

  1. Formulaic spell (Philum of Fire) vrs Unravelling The Fabric of Ignem (PeIg25) Item
    Result: Item unravels the spell because it goes off during the combat phase while the spell goes off during the magic phase

  2. Fast-cast spell (Philum of Fire) vrs Unravelling The Fabric of Ignem (PeIg25) Item
    Contest: Initiative contest between spell caster and item wielder of Quickness + Finesse + Stress Die vrs Quikness + Stress Die

  3. Philum of Fire Item vrs Unravelling The Fabric of Ignem Item (PeIg25)
    Contest: Initative contest between spell caster and defender of Qik + stress vrs Qik + stress

-----------Formulaic Defense---------------------------

  1. Formulaic Philum of Fire vrs Formulaic Unravelling the Fabric of Ignem (PeIg25)
    Result: Philum is neutralized because all formulaic spells go off simulatenously

  2. Fast-cast Philum of Fire vrs Formulaic Unravelling the Fabric of Ignem
    Result: Philum takes affect since it occurs during the combat round


p.s. there is ofcourse the fast-cast defense (AM5pg83) but those rules seem clear enough.

p.s.s. I have cross-posted this on the Berkely list

Well, in ArM5, spells are handled via initiative, like every other action. So if the caster beats the Flambeau to the completion of his spell, then the Unravelling will work. Unlike previous editions, there are no phases.

First we need to know if you're playing in 4th or 5th edition.

This question is similar to my "How long does it take to cast a spell".

The consensus on this board, as I understand it, in 5th ed is as follows:

If a magus wants to counter a specific spell effect, he must fast cast (thus spontanous or a Mastered spell). If he goes before the effect in question, he must delay until the initiative on which the spell goes off. If you don't make your roll to determine the technique used in the spell, you can guess, and if you guess wrong, it's likely that your spell won't help. For an Ignem hungry mage, it might not be so hard to guess what they're casting.

If a magus wants to "hope for the best" he can cast a normal Formulaic spell, I would guess this would be of limited use (read: none) against a spell that isn't already manifested. It COULD blow the casting mage over or encase him in water or something of the sort that could inhibit him in casting or require a concentration roll to complete the spell.

As always, you can rule as you like in your own saga. Why, you might ask , can an effect disrupt your spell casting/require a concentration roll if you're not spell casting during a round right up until you cast your own spell?

The only difference in a device is that your storyguide might let you use the Initiative Modifier of it, assuming it has one, to increase your initiative when you use it (though the rules don't say you can).

In 4th edition, I would agree that a device goes in the combat part of the phase, before all other magic, however you're sorta in the same posistion, trying to dispel some fire that doesn't exhist yet.

Maybe you would be better served creating a device that is always on to protect against a fire effect. Or an effect that has a duration, such as "destroys any fires within sight for Diameter. I don't believe you could design an effective effect that would trigger fast enough to respond to a momentary threat, such as cast PeIg when it is touched by fire. Maybe a kind Storyguide would allow such a device to roll its iniative against the effect hitting it and if it beat it allow the device to be effective. But then you wouldn't be able to trigger it yourself (except by maybe throwing it in a fire).

I don't think in either edition you can "fast-cast" with a device. Nor design a device that can fast-cast.

Thanks for the clarifications.

We're are playing with 5th edition, but keep being confused with my previous experience with 4th edition.

That would be an interesting breakthrough for a magus to work towards, though, as indeed would one allowing a magus to incorporate spell mastery effects into enchanted devices. (I don't recall there being any rules for doing so at present, though I haven't read all the 5th edition splats.)

splats is such an ugly word. (but it's fine for other people's favorite games :wink: ).

there are some things that come close.

There is a verditious mystery called "enchanted casting tools" that allows a verditious to enchant a casting tool to provide a bonus effect to their spell casting, giving them a sort of artifical spell mastery.

I there was a discussion (I believe on the old boards) regarding setting up enchanted devices (whether they could be the same device or multiple devces was the point of contention) with environmental triggers allowing a sort of item based multicasting.

Sorry, other games (which I shall not dignify by mentioning here) may have splats, ours definitely has sourcebooks. Ahem...

Thanks for the information, by the way.