Unstructured Caster optimization


ex misc



So you consider that an insult thrown at players, or you specifically? Dude, that is just a little too much for me. That is like someone feeling personally insulted because I say Spiderman is cool and Superman is a pansy. I mean, yeah, when I was 10 words like this could start fights. But I would hope we can outgrow feeling insulted by attacks on our favorite fictions.

Ken's right. It degenerated into a pirates versus ninjas debate.


No way! Sooperman rulz.



Depends. I think Supes is outdated and lame. But in the hands of the right artist and writer, he can be portrayed as iconic and relevant. It is tricky, but can be done.


I think that sums up the entire superhero genre.



No way man! Spiderman rules!


Oh yeah? Well Superman has this way cool Fortress of Solitude, whereas Spiderman just spends too much time alone.



and spiderman is a Diedne

I am so personally offended at your direct insult obviously aimed specifically at me! :laughing:

I don't see why you should be offended since I held back telling you what I really think!

(have we beaten this horse sufficiently into the ground, or ought we bring it back as a zombie to beat some more?)



I think we made our point, but we will both villified anyway. Meh, I am used to it :laughing:

Since i cant recall ever having played a Diedne or even used the DM virtue, not at me really no. It was probably meant to be pointed directly at me and certain others, but i think its rather a bad thing to seriously try to insult people only because you can.
Or think you can.

What debate? Pirates dies, end of story.

And thats just another way of being pretentiuosly "im right, haha they´re wrong and silly" derogative.
Common rethorical tactic, often used by politicians.
I prefer not to, far too dishonest for my taste.

In which supplements do cthonic and charm magic appear?

Not at all if you include some initiations in post-apprenticeship character development.

RoP: I Chthonic.

HoH: MC Charm.

Ah, didn't think of later expansion. Did think of ex misc, but their supernatural virtue would not be hermetic, would it?

Technically, some Virtues are both Hermetic and Supernatural, so they may qualify for the Ex Misc extra. Typical case for spont optimization picking Chthonic Magic with the Ex Misc extra, Diedne Magic with the vanilla Major slot.

Anyway, after the publication of TMRE and HoH:MC, the rule that limits a character to one Hermetic Major only and 10 pts. of Virtues at creation is effectively way obsolete, since you may easily break the 10-pts Virtues ceiling, as well as two or more Major Hermatic vts, by adding some Initiations to post-apprenticeship character creation. You just need to define any relevant Quests and Ordeals and calculate the season equivalent of Quests and Initiation proper with the ST.

In my group, we have long since adopted both these systems (with the agreement that any such character-creation Initiations may be used both as future plot hooks and for flashback sequences).

Oh, well if thats what bothers you, then I apologize. Being smarmy amuses me :smiley:

Having reviewed this very nifty analysis, I've decided to integrate it with my own experience playing a spont specialist.

Thanks to several initations, both in-game and during post-apprenticeship character creation, my character has: Faerie Magic plus Charm Magic (as well as Spell Timing, Anima Magic, and Glamour), Diedne Magic, Chthonic Magic, Hermetic Theurgy, & Major Magical Focus (Damage).

I can confirm the very good efficacy of the 1 + c + d combo to make spont magic quite effective. Thanks to it, my character has become the spont magic generalist workhorse of the group, churning out all kinds of nifty utility spells for all kinds of contingencies, plus in combat he's able to make a good performance.

Thanks to the MMF, he has the option of not fatiguing himself with direct damage spells when penetration is not a problem, or fatiguing himself and casting them with a sizable total (4x weakest Art is very nice). If MR is really a problem, he can always use suprisingly effective TK attack spells, which bypass MR: at 3x weakest Art, such TK spont attacks carry a good punch.

As a mtter of fact, MMF (D) is so effective for spont magic, that for optimization purposes, I would suggest to pick it if at all compaitble with character concept, and develop any other focus, if any, with Potent Magic.

While Spell Timing does not directly enhance spont magic, I can tell from experience it significantly improves it indirectly, by providing some very nifty enhanced durations, in comparison to Sun: "until I sleep" and "while we travel" are very nice to use.

For charms, I use memorized poetry or storytelling or songs, thus nullifying the danger that they can stolen or destroyed. I heartily suggest to use non-material charms if any compatible with character concept.

I am puzzled that nobody mentioned Enduring Constitution for a spont specialist. It effectively gives extra fatigue levels to use.

While theoretically useful, Names of Power + Invocation + Comsummate Talisman is the most expensive option for the benefits it gives, and it is probably suboptimal. As a matter of fact, I gave my character Hermetic Theurgy with the possible long-term perspective of development that way, the stories we played have not yet allowed me to implement any significant development that way. In hindsight, I have come to wonder whether my fascination with the concept of theurgy moved me to pick a virtue (HT) that, while nice as a future possible development hook, was actually rather wasteful in terms of optimizing the spont specialist character focus. Surely, the theurgy angle has nto been as fruitful as the faerie magic angle, in this regard. Therefore, IMO the theurgy angle should be pursued only after other more useful virtues have been developed, if ever.

By the way, I agree that becoming a Daimon may not be that great for a Spont specialist, but they can still use Might in place of fatigue, so it is not that bad, either. Faerie Becoming is the immortality option that really sucks terribly for a spont specialist. The Great Elixir is the optimal option here, Living Ghost and Daimon are comparable, rather inferior but liveable.

With the caveats above, I would add that Synthemata Magia may be useful to a spont specialist to overcome MR problems.

I agree that Performance Magic would be nifty to have with Charm Magic, in hindsight I would have added it (or Enduring Constitution) from the start in the place of Hermetic Theurgy, I might initiate it in the future. As above, Perfomance Magic is used optimally if it involves activities that do not need material props, and/or allow to substitute both words and gestures. Music fits the criteria effectively, so Sorcerous Music is the optimal choice.

Silent & Still Magic may be rather useful theoretically, but our playstyle has minimized the necesssity for them.

Shapeshifter may also be rather useful to counter fatigue losses, another Virtue I might initiate in the future. If one goes this way, Silent & Still Magic become rather more useful (see if your SG shall allow to initiate the whole package as a Major Virtue equivalent), a better option that Unbound Tongue, although the latter may the point-saving inferior option.

I do not believe that Mythic Blood does anything worthwhile for a spont specialist, since it reduces fatigue penalities for formulaic magic only. Ditto for Flawless Magic, what use has it for a spont specialist ?

Spont speciality and Hermetic Theurgy tend to work against each other, they are mostly alternative ways of doing the same thing since HT only works effectively when cast formulaic. And a Spont specialist most likely picked up either Rigid Magic or Unstructured Caster to balance their Virtues. Hence, I would prefer to pick a MMF in Damage and not Spirits. If anything, and your V/F bvuild still allows to cast formulaic magic good enough to use theurgy, and you really want it, you may pick Major Potent Magic (Spirits) instead, for theurgy is just as good.

Luck of Heroes is not a Virtue I'm aware of (which book is it from ?) , so I restrain from commenting on it. But IMO Cautious Sorcerer is more than adequate to contain risk from botching for a spont specialist.

Spell Foci may or may not be that really useful for a spont specialist, the description hints you may get its use restricted to a specific Craft type. I'm more than a little dubious about its usefulness.

LLSM may be very useful to cast that killer spont combat spell once in a while, but in my experience Chthonic + Diedne + MMF (damage) covers that angle adequately, with definitely less of a crippling fatigue bill. IMO it should be picked only after the above combo, or as an alternative if you don't want any of them for whatever reason. I might initiate it in the future in the place of the other stuff.

Harnessed Magic may be useful to get maximum flexibility out of your spont spells, but if you have Spell Timing, it covers that angle adequately.

Anima Magic may be an adequate substitute for Hermetic Theurgy if you are any good at bargaining (or Rego), and Glamour significantly enhances what you can get out of your magic.

Therefore, IMO a very very good spont magic optimization can be made with Faerie Magic + Charm Magic + Spell Timing, Chthonic Magic, Diedne Magic, MMF (Damage), either one or both of Enduring Constitution and Cautious Sorcerer. Performance Magic (esp. Sorcerous Music) optional. 13-15 vp. You can round it up by getting LLSM (16-18 vp) and/or Hermetic Theurgy + Names of Powers + Invocation + Consummate Talisman + optionally one or both of Synthemata Magia and Major Potent Magic (Spirits) (21-26 vp) and/or Shapeshifter + Silent/Still Magic (19-21 vp). But probably adding LLSM plus Shapeshifter (19-21 vp) is the most effective combo ever.

Faerie Magic + Charm Magic + Spell Timing, Cthonic Magic, Diedne Magic, MMF (Damage), Enduring Constitution, Cautious Sorcerer, LLSM, and Shapeshifter is IMO the most effective spont specialist build ever.

Tamed Magic ( HoH:TL pg 107) gives you both Harnessed and Tethered Magic that can be used in Spont spells. You must also take Mutantum Magic virtue so that is 4 points tied up.