Unstructured Caster optimization

[Ovarwa]

considers

considers more

once more out of the breach... to consider

Ok. Right now, I'll engage this conversation regarding Flaws as they pertain to optimization rather than character concept.

When it comes to creating a good character and how to Flaw him, I have very different things to say, and the conversation will take a turn having nothing to do with Spontaneous Magic, or any of the other primary topics of this thread. Suffice it to say that I am not quoting the post immediately preceding this because insofar as I'm concerned, "I have lots of Spontaneous Magic and the rest of my character is a natural outgrowth and reflection of this" is alien to my thoughts about the nature of character. It isn't a wrong or bad approach, but I have nothing useful to say about it.

On the other hand, I am a big believer in character optimization. So!

First, personality and story flaws. If a SG isn't going to punish you for them, take as many as you want to play and are permitted to take. wry chuckle Maybe take a few if the SG won't play them. Who really cares what they are? You might, so take the ones you like. The ones you'll have fun with. Take em first, justify later. How does spontaneous magic go with, um... heir, indiscreet and fury? Not my problem... if it has a player thinking of a fun character, I'm sure he'll wave his hands somehow.

(Game idea: Put all the story and personality flaws into a database. Have a program that chooses 2 of each for you, one major and one minor. Spend five minutes thinking about a character with these flaws. If something fun comes to mind, write him up and play! If not, click on the Do It Again button.)

Flaws that go well with great spontaneous magic. Hmm. Ok. Limiting Formulaic Magic is an obvious choice, but not necessarily a good one. Real power comes from Formulaic magic, and a few select spells go a long, long way. So Rigid Magic is a much more attractive choice than Unstructured Caster. Much much much more attractive. But if you're planning to become immortal (other than by being a Criamon, going to Heaven or becoming a Great Beast), both Flaws make it impossible, since all immortality paths involve rituals. If you care about this, Waster of Vis is a better choice.

Blatant Gift is an intriguing choice, especially for Cthonic Diedne: Why settle for having the Divine hate you and Magi hate you when you can have all the mundanes hate you too?

Deficient Technique? Restriction? We're now in the general case of limiting magic.

Obviously, Weak Spontaneous Magic is not an option here.

Really, there is no right or wrong here. It's all about personal preference: Decide what you want, wave hands later.

Anyway,

Ken

[Kallista]

my PbP character is into spontaneous magic because she's a Magic Addict.

Being so, it's dangerous for her to cast formulaic. She'll do it, and love it, if she had any spells worth a darn. But her pater, seeing she was an addict, purposely spread out her arts and taught her low level spells. So she wouldn't give in and cast something big just for a rush.

Learning Charms is more her idiom being half Fae and (enchanting)musician. But it is chosen to fit the character, as in, what would the character learn as a traveling singer and storyteller?

Chthonic magic is right out. The character is trying to be more... human and caring.

After too much use of Chthonic magic I would assume

A: Chthonic magic stops working because the character's morality shifts.
B: The character goes insane because their Value of Right is in direct opposition of all their actions.
C: Chthonic magic isn't used enough to be worth having, ie only used in an emergency.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

@Kallista

my PbP character is into spontaneous magic because she's a Magic Addict.

Being so, it's dangerous for her to cast formulaic. She'll do it, and love it, if she had any spells worth a darn. But her pater, seeing she was an addict, purposely spread out her arts and taught her low level spells. So she wouldn't give in and cast something big just for a rush.

Spontaneous Magic is more dangerous for a magic addict, because every spont must be fatiguing and stressful. Fatigue is guaranteed; botches quite possible. But a formulaic spell that satisfies the addiction need not be either--it just has to be big. A character who masters a big formulaic spell within her area of expertise is safest.

Learning Charms is more her idiom being half Fae and (enchanting)musician. But it is chosen to fit the character, as in, what would the character learn as a traveling singer and storyteller?

Sure, like bread, butter and chutney.

Chthonic magic is right out. The character is trying to be more... human and caring.

Well, CM can be played in many ways; people deliberately do wrong all the time, and this doesn't make them less human. Perhaps it makes them more human!

Granted, though, that Cthonic Magic brings darker elements that might not suit some characters. It's an Infernal Virtue, after all!

After too much use of Chthonic magic I would assume

A: Chthonic magic stops working because the character's morality shifts.
B: The character goes insane because their Value of Right is in direct opposition of all their actions.
C: Chthonic magic isn't used enough to be worth having, ie only used in an emergency.

Depends on the character. I don't think I'd be happy in a saga where a SG ruled this way as a matter of course!

A: Possible, but we'd have to see the shift.
B: I would certainly expect to see some kind of inner conflict. This is a dark character, yet not necessarily mad. (For example, most people believe it is wrong to break the law, yet consistently and deliberately drive above the speed limit....) And what's wrong with a touch of madness? Think of all the people RL who like Bjork....
C: Certainly a character has choices about when to use the full virtue!

(I almost gave CM to Iohannes. He's my Jewish sea captain/magus, and it fits him. Every spell he casts is a sin and he knows it; he also knows that he's not really supposed to contend magically or violently even against those who persecute and hurt his kin; he also knows that as a sea captain he is intrinsically less virtuous than someone who stays with the community. But... he's going to do all this stuff anyway, because of his own sense of self and the world. I suspect he's a sympathetic character who does what he thinks is wrong. (Characters who always do the right thing are bland, suitable only for David Weber novels.) I didn't give it too him because the character was already too crowded, and when I wrote him up, I owned only the main rules. I don't think A, B or C would have applied to him--and they might not apply to many characters.)

Anyway,

Ken

[DIREWOLF75]

Thirty years, at 30xp/year all devoted to Arts provides 900xp. The canonical 30xp/year is stingy, but allowing that much to go toward Arts is extremely generous. Let's give him a round 1000xp in Arts total, representing his career. More than fair, I think.

As a complete generalist, he has an 11 in every Art. Diedne Magic with fatigue lets him add one extra magnitude to his sponts (11/2=5.5). This is not very impressive. (LLSM provides 3 magnitudes at the cost of exhaustion.)

As a relative specialist, with scores in only 8 Arts, he has 15. One fatigue gives him 1.5 magnitudes. That's a bit nicer; he can still divide by 2 without fatigue. But all spells involving any of the other Arts gain nothing from fatigue.

And once again, having any art with zeroes would be silly.
Lets make it simplistic, score 5 in 5 neglected Forms, thats 75XP, allowing score 13, 910XP, in all the rest.

I'd still give the nod to LLSM, without reservation.

Then i guess you must always play with a really wuzzy SG?
Because you are completely ignoring needing to be able to cast repeatedly.
Which means your "preferred" character would simply be dead all the sooner, because at the point where he realises that the first spell didnt work well enough, or only fixed what was visible when he cast THAT, now he´s totally spent when needing to cast again.

Substantially older. Not just 30 years.

Only if you ignore the need to be able to cast repeatedly.
LLSM is totally superior IF its a matter of being a "one strong spell per day" character, but rarely have i played in stories where that was survivable without very strong support (like another magi or 2 that are not also the time-version of one-trick-ponies).
As long as you can do nonfatigueing sponts at /2, thats usually plenty enough for a lot of situations.

And if we say 30XP per year+100 from apprenticeship, at 20 years out you can easily have 10 arts at score 10 and the last 5 at score 5... Adding a magnitude from going with fatigueing is decent and even if level 10 spells are not exactly "save the world!" potency, it really does beat only being able to fire off ONE much better spell.

[DIREWOLF75]

After too much use of Chthonic magic I would assume

A: Chthonic magic stops working because the character's morality shifts.
B: The character goes insane because their Value of Right is in direct opposition of all their actions.
C: Chthonic magic isn't used enough to be worth having, ie only used in an emergency.

Agree that A is likely to happen, and might even be a "requirement" from the start for many characters, because VERY rarely will people do wrong or evil intentionally and fully knowing.
B, yeah although this may be a way to escape the problem of A.
C is certainly an interesting point of view and i could most certainly picture characters having the ability reserved as a last resort kind of thing.

Spontaneous Magic is more dangerous for a magic addict, because every spont must be fatiguing and stressful.

ONLY if a stressdie is used while casting.
Of course, for such a character Diedne magic is utterly and dreadfully useless, unless of course you WANT to "wake" MA all the time.

(For example, most people believe it is wrong to break the law, yet consistently and deliberately drive above the speed limit....)

Now you´re confusing things. Those who "consistently and deliberately drive above the speed limit" does NOT except very rarely think its wrong WHEN THEY DO IT.
Its the "i can handle it" or "im an exception" or "just this once" etc endless flow of excuses which "makes it ok", which means its not wrong.

[Wanderer]

@Ovarwa

If you can initiate or grab it without MB--and there are a few other virtues that should justify it for similar reasons, such as SFB and the various lucky virtues--it's very nice. What better way to spend Confidence?

It's a limited resource, sure, but it replenishes pretty often.

Maybe. There are other Major Virtues that make good use of Confidence points, such as Story Magic, for that matter. I would still buy CS first and only consider getting CL later by Initation, if ever, in light of LLSM. But I suppose our perceived usefulness of thse virtues varies according to our experiences with magical botches. My group and I had relatively few and benign experiences with magical botches (no one ever went into Twilight, only an handful of times a magus passed out during a fight), so I suppose this colores my attitude towards botches.

Not almost as good, because CS still leaves botch potential, which matters a lot with LLSM, but also any time you really can't afford to botch. I do like CS though. Cheap for what it does. (But CS really comes into its own combined with Flawless Magic....)

Ok, this is reasonable but CS should still be gotten first. And Flawless Magic is a waste of a good Initiation for a spont specialist.

And Gentle Gift may still be the most powerful Major Hermetic Virtue!

In an alternate setting where Hermetic Magic is much less powerful as in canon, perhaps. Well-built canon mages only really have to fear other mages, supernatural creatures, and the occasional mortal who can tap the power of the divine. Mundane humans are not really a threat, and therefore the need to appease them by not having Gift-related social penalties grows less. GG is only really worthy for mages that want to infiltrate mundane society for long periods of time. Personally, I would only be interested in a Virtue that would mute Gift-related social penalties for magic and faerie creatures, and I really regret that you are not allowed to pick Alluring/Inoffensive/Offensive/Unbearable mulitple times, and customize the social effects of your Gift (the closest you can get to this in canon is Binding the Gift, a rather nifty virtue, even if not as good as Spirit Familiar) this way but typically I've seen SG not applying Gift effects to magical or faerie beings.

Nah. Damage is a pretty boring focus, IMO, even for combat.

I think that a really good focus should have combat and non-combat utility, and, in the hands of a clever player, be used in ways that are interesting and unexpected. (And if it applies to your familiar, even better.)

But a spont specialist is already basing his whole approach to magic on creativity. Combat is the one area where the need to resort to cast repeatedly, without racking up too much of a fatigue bill, grows most clear. A focus in Damage helps a lot here. IMO your approach neglects the need to cast multiple times in combat too much.

Does your saga have so much vis floating around that Free Study ever comes into play?

To a reasonable degree, yes, since we often go into highly magical locations, like covenants or regios.

Do the other magi really let you take that valuable book out into storms so you can study Auram?

What, the covenant scribe can't produce an extra copy of the book ? In ArM 5th. ed, a mundane scribe that has MT and all four RL can produce wholly reliable copies of any magical text. Hence the covenant that hires some decent scribes and trains them in those abilities is not going to have a problem with intra-covenant plentiful availability of texts, and the mage that does his own copying of books is an utter idiot. In setting up a covenant, I would worry picking up scribes, illuminators, and bookbinders well before I worry about hiring guards. The main factor that limits circulation of book in the Order is their perceived value, which fuels the OoH barter economy, not their physical availability, which may be dealt with by hiring enough bookmaker personnel.

Ah, it doesn't exist.

(If it requires a major breakthrough to exist, it doesn't exist.)

YMMV, but many Minor and Major Breakthroughs have demonstrably happened in the history of the Order, see the Mysteries, so a Breakthrough that is given full rule coverage in a canon supplement like AM and HMRE does exist, if not in the Order's present, in its future. At the very most, you can say that in your saga, it has not happened... yet.

CS, yes, but not Unaging. Maintaining characteristics at 0 is easy with CrCo and CrMe..... if the saga even lasts that long.

Maybe. But I'm just as partial to immortality and its seeming as you are to avoiding botches.

[Wanderer]

@Ovarwa

Ok. Right now, I'll engage this conversation regarding Flaws as they pertain to optimization rather than character concept.

When it comes to creating a good character and how to Flaw him, I have very different things to say, and the conversation will take a turn having nothing to do with Spontaneous Magic, or any of the other primary topics of this thread. Suffice it to say that I am not quoting the post immediately preceding this because insofar as I'm concerned, "I have lots of Spontaneous Magic and the rest of my character is a natural outgrowth and reflection of this" is alien to my thoughts about the nature of character. It isn't a wrong or bad approach, but I have nothing useful to say about it.

YMMV. IMO, the magical speciality is a big part of the concept, and anyway, in character creation I always proceed creating concept (which includes a broad personality and set of abilties and powers), optimized mechanics, and a detailed personality, in this order. Background comes last, to be shaped according to what comes first, and the less the better. I'm just as uncreative and bored with creating backgrounds and life histories as I enjoy shaping up concept, personality, and optimized mechanics.

First, personality and story flaws. If a SG isn't going to punish you for them, take as many as you want to play and are permitted to take. wry chuckle Maybe take a few if the SG won't play them. Who really cares what they are? You might, so take the ones you like. The ones you'll have fun with. Take em first, justify later. How does spontaneous magic go with, um... heir, indiscreet and fury? Not my problem... if it has a player thinking of a fun character, I'm sure he'll wave his hands somehow.

Fully agreed with this, but I also like to make everything as coherent as possible.

Flaws that go well with great spontaneous magic. Hmm. Ok. Limiting Formulaic Magic is an obvious choice, but not necessarily a good one. Real power comes from Formulaic magic, and a few select spells go a long, long way.

Let's agree to disagree on the former part of the statement, we can agree on the latter.

So Rigid Magic is a much more attractive choice than Unstructured Caster. Much much much more attractive. But if you're planning to become immortal (other than by being a Criamon, going to Heaven or becoming a Great Beast), both Flaws make it impossible, since all immortality paths involve rituals. If you care about this, Waster of Vis is a better choice.

Actually, this is not correct. The rituals involved in immortality methods are not subject to the limitations created by Rigid Magic and Unstructured Caster. This for two reasons: first, it is stated that those "rituals" are not true Hermetic Ritual spells, but are only treated as such for game-mechanic purposes, and actually are either time-consuming preparations or non-Hermetic magical rituals. Therefore, they are not subject to Flaws that affect Hermetic magic. Moreover, the ability to make them is always granted by an Initiation, which always happens after such a Flaw is gained, and as such the Initiation trumps the Flaw, since its whole purpose to allow the immortality method.

Yep, I really care about making my characters ageless as much as possible, in any RPG. My RL transhumanist wishes being vented out in RPG vicarious fulfillment and all that.

Blatant Gift is an intriguing choice, especially for Cthonic Diedne: Why settle for having the Divine hate you and Magi hate you when you can have all the mundanes hate you too?

Only Tremere are going to care, please, unless you get real sloppy with those Chthonic spells, and for the bloody Divine, please, real mages shall care for getting its approval when it lets humans use their birthright, magic, without hampering it and not a moment before (besides the bragging, however, I agree that going out of one's way to picking fights with the Divine is foolishness, likely to draw unstoppable retribution from the Big Guy itself sooner or later; on the other hand, wasting Divine characters and creatures that come seeking your hide on their initiative is self-defense and rightful exercise of your free will, the Big Guy itself is not likely going to be involved, and his minions can be managed by a decent magus).

About mundanes, if your magus finds himself in the position of having to fear them when they are not directly supported by another magus, supernatural crerature, or the Divine, something has gone really wrong.

[Wanderer]

@Ovarwa

Spontaneous Magic is more dangerous for a magic addict, because every spont must be fatiguing and stressful. Fatigue is guaranteed; botches quite possible. But a formulaic spell that satisfies the addiction need not be either--it just has to be big. A character who masters a big formulaic spell within her area of expertise is safest.

Agreed on this.

Well, CM can be played in many ways; people deliberately do wrong all the time, and this doesn't make them less human. Perhaps it makes them more human!

Granted, though, that Cthonic Magic brings darker elements that might not suit some characters. It's an Infernal Virtue, after all!

Also full agreement on this.

Depends on the character. I don't think I'd be happy in a saga where a SG ruled this way as a matter of course!

A: Possible, but we'd have to see the shift.
B: I would certainly expect to see some kind of inner conflict. This is a dark character, yet not necessarily mad. (For example, most people believe it is wrong to break the law, yet consistently and deliberately drive above the speed limit....) And what's wrong with a touch of madness? Think of all the people RL who like Bjork....
C: Certainly a character has choices about when to use the full virtue!

Yes. IMO a SG that arbitrarily makes the virtue stop working is absuing his powers and in dire danger of being swatted with a rulebook . He is free, and welcomed, to weave the drawbacks of CM, such as risk of discovery, in stories now and then, since it is effectively a Dark Secret, but no right to mess with the charactrer's personality or a Virtue that the player bought normally.

As for the moral issue, well, the character just needs to know he's doing a wicked thing, and he may easily rationalize that the good he's getting or doing with his enhanced magic outweighs the wickedness involve in the act. Such rationalizations can last a long, long time.

[Wanderer]

@DIREWOLF75

Agree that A is likely to happen, and might even be a "requirement" from the start for many characters, because VERY rarely will people do wrong or evil intentionally and fully knowing.
B, yeah although this may be a way to escape the problem of A.

Rationalizations, please. "The good I do in the end (to myself or others, does not matter from this PoV, according to different kinds of characters) outweighs the evil/wicked means I have to use". The character can still rationalize the evil or wicked things he does, while still deeming them so, as justified in the big picture. This makes A or B unnecessary in any way. It may still happen if the player wants to go this way, but the SG that imposes so is an abusive ass.

C is certainly an interesting point of view and i could most certainly picture characters having the ability reserved as a last resort kind of thing.

Well, this is not really different from how many characters would use LLSM.

ONLY if a stressdie is used while casting.
Of course, for such a character Diedne magic is utterly and dreadfully useless, unless of course you WANT to "wake" MA all the time.

True, unless one uses a good formulaic spell on hand to satisfy MA urges immediately with it.

(For example, most people believe it is wrong to break the law, yet consistently and deliberately drive above the speed limit....)

Now you´re confusing things. Those who "consistently and deliberately drive above the speed limit" does NOT except very rarely think its wrong WHEN THEY DO IT.
Its the "i can handle it" or "im an exception" or "just this once" etc endless flow of excuses which "makes it ok", which means its not wrong.
[/quote]

You miss the all-important rationalization distinction between deeming something wrong in general, and deeming it wrong when I do it. And anyway, IMO CM can still be tapped even if the character thinks the act is wrong in general, or evil or wicked, but not wrong for him to do it when he does it. Rationalizations can be used, and one can keep rationalizing something all his life, without even changing his judgement of something as right or wrong in general.

[Kallista]

@Wanderer

Rationalizations, please. "The good I do in the end (to myself or others, does not matter from this PoV, according to different kinds of characters) outweighs the evil/wicked means I have to use". The character can still rationalize the evil or wicked things he does, while still deeming them so, as justified in the big picture. This makes A or B unnecessary in any way. It may still happen if the player wants to go this way, but the SG that imposes so is an abusive ass.

You miss the all-important rationalization distinction between deeming something wrong in general, and deeming it wrong when I do it. And anyway, IMO CM can still be tapped even if the character thinks the act is wrong in general, or evil or wicked, but not wrong for him to do it when he does it. Rationalizations can be used, and one can keep rationalizing something all his life, without even changing his judgement of something as right or wrong in general.

There is only so long a person can do that without some sort of breakdown. Either the person's morality changes to incorporate their actions or the person 'loses it' because they hate their self.

The mind cannot perceive itself as being evil without next killing itself or going insane. A breakdown is inevitable. Many people then seek some sort of redemption after a breakdown. Those that don't are slowly going insane.

Rationalization aka lying to yourself only works for so long.

I don't know if this is the intent of Chthonic Magic, but it is how I would interpret it. Of course I'm talking about a character that uses it a lot over a long period of time.

[DIREWOLF75]

You miss the all-important rationalization distinction between deeming something wrong in general, and deeming it wrong when I do it.

Eh... no, thats exactly what i pointed out. Thats what i said, people rationalise it so that it ISNT supposedly wrong when they do it this time.

And anyway, IMO CM can still be tapped even if the character thinks the act is wrong in general, or evil or wicked, but not wrong for him to do it when he does it. Rationalizations can be used, and one can keep rationalizing something all his life, without even changing his judgement of something as right or wrong in general.

Thats probably how it will have to be played, as otherwise it will often be hard to make it work.
Although in reality you will find extremely few people who does not change from such rationalising. Actually i doubt you will find ANY. And those you are most likely to find would be psychopats.

The character can still rationalize the evil or wicked things he does, while still deeming them so, as justified in the big picture.

But if its for a greater good, is it really wrong/evil then?
Kallista mostly rationalised the rest so to speak.

Well, this is not really different from how many characters would use LLSM.

Its extremely different. LLSM is the option of potentially tiring yourself to the point of dying. CM is the option of being evil for the sake of whatever spell you´re trying to fire off.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

@Wanderer

And Gentle Gift may still be the most powerful Major Hermetic Virtue!

In an alternate setting where Hermetic Magic is much less powerful as in canon, perhaps. Well-built canon mages only really have to fear other mages, supernatural creatures, and the occasional mortal who can tap the power of the divine. Mundane humans are not really a threat, and therefore the need to appease them by not having Gift-related social

A well-built canon mage has personality.

He has a life.

He is not a main battle tank.

His primary desires and motivations have nothing to do with magic.

I'm talking about people with a smidgeon of realism, not just Jerbiton magi.

Gentle Gift allows a magus to spend a pleasant evening at a tavern.

Gentle Gift allows him to acquire an apprentice without scaring him half to death.

Gentle Gift allows a magus to get what he wants from mundanes without having them run to the nearest church and pray for a saint, angel or hero to save them from the abomination.

Gentle Gift allows a magus to ride a horse and go hawking with his friends, which he might actually have.

Gentle Gift allows a magus to negotiate with the King of France, the Pope or Saint Francis. Also with those Dominicans bearing torches and an unfriendly aura.

Gentle Gift lets a magus get laid without Rego Mentem.

Gentle Gift lets a magus send that mob against a rival covenant and never be discovered, even when that rival comes up for charges at Tribunal for overreacting.

These things might not matter in your saga.

I imagine they matter in some.

From a purely mechanical perspective, Gentle Gift opens up all kinds of options that most magi don't have. No Twilight, no Warping.

Nah. Damage is a pretty boring focus, IMO, even for combat.

I think that a really good focus should have combat and non-combat utility, and, in the hands of a clever player, be used in ways that are interesting and unexpected. (And if it applies to your familiar, even better.)

But a spont specialist is already basing his whole approach to magic on creativity. Combat is the one area where the need to resort to cast repeatedly, without racking up too much of a fatigue bill, grows most clear. A focus in Damage helps a lot here. IMO your approach neglects the need to cast multiple times in combat too much.

My approach is to recommend, "Hey, when you really need to cause damage and penetrate, there's no substitute for a mastered formulaic spell in your Arts specialty. LLSM + Charm Magic lets you spont well across the board, so you can still gain all the benefits of Arts specialization. You won't have a casting total of 60 right out of Gauntlet, because you have all those sponts. But you'll get there soon enough."

Does your saga have so much vis floating around that Free Study ever comes into play?

To a reasonable degree, yes.....
(etc)

easy laughter Ah, we might as well be playing different games. (Except that you're up on me because I'm not actually playing these days.)

Anyway,

Ken

[Wanderer]

@Ovarwa

A well-built canon mage has personality.

Very true.

He has a life.

In the usual sense of "social life" ? Sometimes yes, sometimes not. But many times his/her only meaningful social contacts shall be with other mages, magical/faerie creatures, or covenfolk.

His primary desires and motivations have nothing to do with magic.

Bah, this is Hollywood family comedy/drama clichè if stated so absolutely. A lot of people find their primary desires and motivations in their life calling/job/primary interest, not in their social life. Not to mention that a lot of people who form a kind of subculture end up picking their love interests, friends, etc. within the same subculture. Applied to magi, this means a lot of them (not all of them, but plentiful to justify the statement) find their "life calling" so to speak in some aspect of magic, or interests that have little to do with mundanes, and have most or all of their meaningful social life (lovers, friends, drinking/hunting buddies, etc.) with other magi or covenfolk or supernatural creatures.

I'm talking about people with a smidgeon of realism, not just Jerbiton magi.

See above.

Gentle Gift allows a magus to spend a pleasant evening at a tavern.

Covenfolk drinking buddies.

Gentle Gift allows him to acquire an apprentice without scaring him half to death.

Utterly trivial in the long term.

Gentle Gift allows a magus to get what he wants from mundanes without having them run to the nearest church and pray for a saint, angel or hero to save them from the abomination.

Intimidation works fine in that situation, then.

Gentle Gift allows a magus to ride a horse and go hawking with his friends, which he might actually have.

Horses can be bred or enchanted to tolerate the Gift, and hawking friends can easily be other mages, covenfolks, or the local faeries.

Gentle Gift allows a magus to negotiate with the King of France, the Pope or Saint Francis. Also with those Dominicans bearing torches and an unfriendly aura.

Those Dominicans should be blasted away with extreme prejudice. Suffer not an Inquisitor to live... And sorry, the Dominion does not expand in a magical or faerie aura just because an handful of zealots shows up.

As for the former point, it is a relevant issue, but isn't that stuff the main reason why the stuck-up Jerbiton exist at all ? <in other words, it is a relevant concern, but only important for a minority of mages.

Gentle Gift lets a magus get laid without Rego Mentem.

Assuming that the magus' lover is not the local nymph, a covenfolk, another maga...

Gentle Gift lets a magus send that mob against a rival covenant and never be discovered, even when that rival comes up for charges at Tribunal for overreacting.

In my saga, the magus that wastes a lynching mob of Dominican zealots either gets slaps in the back and drinking offers, or the issue is ignored, not Tribunal charges. Overreacting, in that sense, would be massacrating a whole village over a trade issue.

These things might not matter in your saga.

They only matter to the degree that a magus has his main interest/life calling in something that requires/concerns mundanes, and/or has several meaningful social contacts among mundanes. From my PoV, this only concerns a minority of magi. Surely those characters exists, I've seen them played, but I'm utterly uninterested in playing "mundie-lovers", and IMO they are unfrequent enough to make the statement not justified that GG is the most important/powerful Virtue ever. It exists to allow those occasional mage concepts, and to fulfill specific RP interests, which I understand and respect, since from a different PoV, they are similar to the reasons why I strive to make all of my characters ageless, even if that has very little impact on the saga. It's just that IMO GG has just a similar little impact on the average saga, and I prefer my characters to have the OoH equivalent of the Magneto mentality.

From a purely mechanical perspective, Gentle Gift opens up all kinds of options that most magi don't have. No Twilight, no Warping.

The first part of the statement is wholly comprehensible (assumign the character and the player ever cares about those options...). The second part is incomprehensible.

My approach is to recommend, "Hey, when you really need to cause damage and penetrate, there's no substitute for a mastered formulaic spell in your Arts specialty.

What if you have Unstructured Caster, Poor Formulaic Magic, or Loose Magic, as most spont specialists shall do ?

LLSM + Charm Magic lets you spont well across the board, so you can still gain all the benefits of Arts specialization.

I keep arguing that LLSM works very well outside of combat, but is terribly unsuited to combat, where rarely one big spell shall settle the issue.

[Wanderer]

@Kallista

There is only so long a person can do that without some sort of breakdown. Either the person's morality changes to incorporate their actions or the person 'loses it' because they hate their self.

The mind cannot perceive itself as being evil without next killing itself or going insane. A breakdown is inevitable. Many people then seek some sort of redemption after a breakdown. Those that don't are slowly going insane.

Rationalization aka lying to yourself only works for so long.

This is simply not true. While some characters indeed evolve the way you tell, some others can keep maintaining a "double morality" and rationalize the issue for a long time without a breakdown. If your statement is the way you would RP a character with CM, it is a fine way of doing it, there is sufficient psychological justificationf ro it. However, there is also sufficient psychological justification to go the other way, and make a character that juggles the psych issues involved in CM for a long time successfully via rationalization, so it would be a terrible way of SG the issue.

[Wanderer]

@DIREWOLF75

Eh... no, thats exactly what i pointed out. Thats what i said, people rationalise it so that it ISNT supposedly wrong when they do it this time.

OK.

Thats probably how it will have to be played, as otherwise it will often be hard to make it work.

Indeed.

Although in reality you will find extremely few people who does not change from such rationalising.

Sometimes it happens, sometimes it does not. Not often enough to make a blanket statements and draw mandatory expectations on how the character would function in the long term.

And those you are most likely to find would be psychopats.

What is the issue with playing a well-adjusted mild psychopath ? In RL, a lot of them end up being successful professionals, politicians, businessmen, etc. Do not let yourself be duped by the Hollywood clichè that significant psychopathic quotient = unwashed nutty baby-eating serial killer holed in a basement.

But if its for a greater good, is it really wrong/evil then?

For the purpose of CM, yes, the magus has to be aware that at some level the act is evil/wicked, but he's free to justify or rationalize it.

Its extremely different. LLSM is the option of potentially tiring yourself to the point of dying. CM is the option of being evil for the sake of whatever spell you´re trying to fire off.

Therefore, both are very similar ways of enhancing your magic at the price of significant consequences and risks. I utterly fail to notice the extreme difference. In many cases, CM and LLSM probably end up being used in similar ways.

[Marko_Markoko]

@Wanderer

@Ovarwa

Blatant Gift is an intriguing choice, especially for Cthonic Diedne: Why settle for having the Divine hate you and Magi hate you when you can have all the mundanes hate you too?

Only Tremere are going to care, please,

The Flambeau care, and if they were to learn of a Chthonic or regular Diedne anywhere in existence, it would be a race to see who gains the glory of clensing the earth of their vile stain. Also, recall the legend of Iarna, that famous Flambeau maga and Schism War heroine who pledged to return if the Diedne ever resurfaced.

@Wanderer

(as) for the bloody Divine, please, real mages shall care for getting its approval when it lets humans use their birthright, magic, without hampering it and not a moment before.

Ye of little faith! The Gift is a blessing from the Lord! So our magic is a little weaker in the cathedral. It is still much more powerful than the magic of the mundane sitting next to me

(besides the bragging, however, I agree that going out of one's way to picking fights with the Divine is foolishness, likely to draw unstoppable retribution from the Big Guy itself sooner or later; on the other hand, wasting Divine characters and creatures that come seeking your hide on their initiative is self-defense and rightful exercise of your free will, the Big Guy itself is not likely going to be involved, and his minions can be managed by a decent magus).

His minions include magi

About mundanes, if your magus finds himself in the position of having to fear them when they are not directly supported by another magus, supernatural crerature, or the Divine, something has gone really wrong.

Yeah, what went wrong is that you interfered with them and drew their wrath down upon you and your sodales

[Kallista]

@Wanderer

What is the issue with playing a well-adjusted mild psychopath ? In RL, a lot of them end up being successful professionals, politicians, businessmen, etc. Do not let yourself be duped by the Hollywood clichè that significant psychopathic quotient = unwashed nutty baby-eating serial killer holed in a basement.

Because if you are a psycopath, you have no conscience, you have no moral sense of "wrong". Thus Chthonic magic doesn't do anything for you because what can you do that is wrong? The only thing "wrong" a psycopath can do, is hurt himself.

[Wanderer]

@Kallista

Because if you are a psycopath, you have no conscience, you have no moral sense of "wrong". Thus Chthonic magic doesn't do anything for you because what can you do that is wrong? The only thing "wrong" a psycopath can do, is hurt himself.

Good point, but as I said, psychopathy may come in degrees. And a character may still have the notion that calling on the power of Loki is... problematic even if one does not give a damn about fellow man.

[Wanderer]

@Marko Markoko

The Flambeau care, and if they were to learn of a Chthonic or regular Diedne anywhere in existence, it would be a race to see who gains the glory of clensing the earth of their vile stain.

"My dear fellow Flambeau, have not yet you tired yet of chasing dead and gone phantasms, and be lured in wild goose chases by the bloody Tremere and Jerbiton ? Can't you see that the TRUE enemies of the Order nowadays lie in the the damnable mundanes and their unrelenting assaults on the founts of magic ? While naive Hermetic mages waste their strength in useless kin-slaying feuds against harmless exotic mages, the cancer of the Dominion is allowed to fester and poison the founts of magic bit by bit. Do you want a crusade that shall truly aid our Order ? Go and slay those who poison the very sources of our being, and stop being a dupe of Tremere lies and Jerbiton slander."

Also, recall the legend of Iarna, that famous Flambeau maga and Schism War heroine who pledged to return if the Diedne ever resurfaced.

I suppose she went the same way as Tytalus and Merinita. Got any news from her nowadays ?

@Wanderer

Ye of little faith! The Gift is a blessing from the Lord!

"Please, do not pain my ears with the lies of the Cassocked Ones. Believe whatever pathetic tales they concoct to justify their greed and intolerance to naive peasants, but do not dare presume where my Gift comes from."

So our magic is a little weaker in the cathedral. It is still much more powerful than the magic of the mundane sitting next to me

"Sit whatever you want, but keep your precious mundanes holed up in the cities they love so much, groveling before their pathetic nailed idol, but teach them to stay away from the places and sources of magic, because if they dare intrude on them to spoil them as they have spoilt the cities, their blood shall be spilled in abundance".

His minions include magi

Any day when mundie-lover traitors can be put in their place is a good day.

Yeah, what went wrong is that you interfered with them and drew their wrath down upon you and your sodales

"As you can see, my fellow sodales, the destruction of that Dominican monastery and the slaying of the Inquisitor party allowed the order to maintain free and uncontested possession of the faerie glade and its vis sources, to fulfill the alliance pact with its inhabitants, and to protect the aura of faerie power where the covenant resides. Here, let me donate this little vis token to the Tribunal as proof of the bounty that shall go irrevocably lost if we cowardly allow mundane encroachments to go unchallenged and unpunished. Do you agree with me that such acts of self-defence against mundane aggression and thievery are no "interference", according to the proper interpretation of the Code ? I was sure you would have. Thank you, my sodales, our Order needs more rightful-thinking mages like you"

[Marko_Markoko]

This is all tongue in cheek, just for fun…

@Wanderer

@Marko Markoko

The Flambeau care, and if they were to learn of a Chthonic or regular Diedne anywhere in existence, it would be a race to see who gains the glory of clensing the earth of their vile stain.

My dear fellow Flambeau, have not yet you tired yet of chasing dead and gone phantasms, and be lured in wild goose chases by the bloody Tremere and Jerbiton ? Can't you see that the TRUE enemies of the Order nowadays lie in the the damnable mundanes and their unrelenting assaults on the founts of magic ? While naive Hermetic mages waste their strength in useless kin-slaying feuds against harmless exotic mages, the cancer of the Dominion is allowed to fester and poison the founts of magic bit by bit. Do you want a crusade that shall truly aid our Order ? Go and slay those who poison the very sources of our being, and stop being a dupe of Tremere lies and Jerbiton slander.

You are obviously a Diedne sympathizer. Why haven’t they resurfaced? Vigilance! And if you are deluded to thing Mundanes and the Church are the true enemies of the Order, I call you a liar and a false magus who seeks to destroy us all and lure us down the path of the Infernal! To call the mundane an enemy is to make an enemy of this Flambeau magus, for the strong have an obligation to defend the weak against oppressors such as you.

Also, recall the legend of Iarna, that famous Flambeau maga and Schism War heroine who pledged to return if the Diedne ever resurfaced.

I suppose she went the same way as Tytalus and Merinita. Got any news from her nowadays ?

I indeed have . She said to watch out for the false Flambeau who preach a false word

Ye of little faith! The Gift is a blessing from the Lord!

Please, do not pain my ears with the lies of the Cassocked Ones. Believe whatever pathetic tales they concoct to justify their greed and intolerance to naive peasants, but do not dare presume where my Gift comes from.

You make two mistakes my sodale. First you fail to recognize that all things are created by God, even magic, even faerie, even the Infernal. Second, for some erroneous reason you refer to “they”. God is one, not a they. Perhaps you refer to the clergy? They are mere men, such as you and I. I speak not of pope or priest or rabbi or iman. I speak of the one true universal divine creator of all existence.

So our magic is a little weaker in the cathedral. It is still much more powerful than the magic of the mundane sitting next to me

Sit whatever you want, but keep your precious mundanes holed up in the cities they love so much, groveling before their pathetic nailed idol, but teach them to stay away from the places and sources of magic, because if they dare intrude on them to spoil them as they have spoilt the cities, their blood shall be spilled in abundance.

Your fears reveal your weakness. And I believe that you are an enemy of the Order! You speak like a mad Tytalus, not at all like a magus of the Enlightened House of Flambeau! I may just have to declare Wizard’s War on you to protect the order from your lies and hysteria
(again, tongue in cheek, just playing)

His minions include magi

Any day when mundie-lover traitors can be put in their place is a good day.

Bring it on!

Yeah, what went wrong is that you interfered with them and drew their wrath down upon you and your sodales

As you can see, my fellow sodales, the destruction of that Dominican monastery and the slaying of the Inquisitor party allowed the order to maintain free and uncontested possession of the faerie glade and its vis sources, to fulfill the alliance pact with its inhabitants, and to protect the aura of faerie power where the covenant resides.

So your need to Molest the Fae makes interfering with Mundanes okay?

Here, let me donate this little vis token to the Tribunal as proof of the bounty that shall go irrevocably lost if we cowardly allow mundane encroachments to go unchallenged and unpunished.

I do not want your blood-money.

Do you agree with me that such acts of self-defence against mundane aggression and thievery are no "interference", according to the proper interpretation of the Code ?

No. I think you should be marched, but I will WW you myself and save this tribunal the effort.

That was just smarmy fun. But in a game, I would most likely declare WW on another magus who spoke like this, and I doubt I would be alone.