The grog might die on his first adventure--it's their job to die first, after all /2--but let's assume he doesn't. He can also be injured and so on. On the outside, he has a useful career of 30 years. Let's call it 20.
His experience comes from Exposure--guard duty and stuff like that, Practice and Adventure. A typical year ought to be 2 seasons of Exposure, 1 Practice and 1 Adventure. That seems fair, since being a grog is like a full-time job. That's 5xp/year. So the grog has paid back his xp halfway through his career. Hmm. I'm less thrilled with this than you. Also note that a covenant with a Trainer can circumvent the need for or value of this virtue.
I'll pass on this one for grogs. I'd rather have Keen Eyes for a guard, Puissant Ability in a favored Ability, extra characteristic points... stuff that's immediately useful and never stops giving.
Although this is a side issue to those you are considering, I think that Study Bonus is a godsend as a story-guide (and Study Requirement too).
Characters with these Virtues/Flaws are always off collecting stuff, or wanting to explore new locations, which instantly provides lots of opportunity for (and motivation to get involved in) stories. And you don't need to make it difficult to make a story out of it. If a character with a Study Bonus wants to study Herbam, then going into the forest near the covenant to scrounge together a collection of "interesting leaves" or something, makes a great opportunity to tell a story (or just a small vignette).
1). Never realized you were limited to only 2 Art Affinities. Now I know. Don't think I ever violated this anywhere, so I am all good.
2). Secondary Insight is so meh. Meh meh meh. Someone might think of how to make use of it. I can't. I also don't like the current version of Elementalist. Very meh. Over priced.
3). Skilled Parens is indeed the best Minor Hermetic Virtue in the game. It boggled my mind why more people don't take it more often.
4). I am not a fan of labling Virtues & Flaws & Boons & Hooks as "Story". ack in the day, we never ever had any trouble coming up with story after story. Sometimes these things get in my way of the story I have going already. Sometimes I like to treat Story Flaws & Hooks as background material, they force your character to act a certain way most all of the time. Sometimes I like to let them simmer, the player knows it will explode sooner or later unless they do something proactive.
Also, as for the age old debate about multiple Story Flaws, I found an example in cannon where it reccomends a character take [b]two[/i] Major Story Flaws. ArM5, page 23, Companion Templates: Knight, under "Customization Notes".
Flawless Magic is the single best Virtue in the game if you utilize it correctly. Now I personally prefer the Mercurian style Flambeau. Mercurian does not just mean "Ritual Spells". It can also mean a focus on Formulaics and spell mastery. Sponts are nice, but I find that I usually take a spell I am sponting and make it into a proper Formulaic when I get the chance. I like to master each and every spell. Every spell can benefit from Mastery. It reduces botch dice, very useful. And if there are no other Mastery Abilities that fit with the way you use the spell, at the very least take Stalwart. You can have a low casting total and not loose Fatigue, and Ritual Fatigue is short term as opposed to long.
The benefit of FM, besides automatically mastering every spell, is that you double any xp placed into mastery. Some spells, if you want to really be impressive with mastery, you need a score of 4 or 5. Maybe 9! That is a lot of xp! I usually combine it with the Mastered Spells Virtue, gaining 50 Mastery xp and doubling them. I spend a lot of starting experience on them too.
Now in practice. You are virtually doubling the quality of any source for mastery xp. Lets invent some averages. Saay the average Mastery Practice is 5 (which it is), the average Trainer is worth 5, average Mastery Tractatus is worth 6, and the average Teacher is worth 8. Flawless Magic doubles all those values, and it stacks with any other xp advantage. Say you have Book Learner. The Q6 Tractatus bbecomes Q9, then doubled for 18 mastery xp. Good Student adds +5 to the trainer Q5, for a total of 20 mastery xp.
Big bonuses, but to be a true spell master, you are going to need it.
Affinity versus Puissant: Puissant pays off quicker, but Affinity is better in the long run. Puissant can be picked up from a mystery or twilight. Affinity cannot (or rather, should not, technically you can). The value of an Affinity is less at first, but will eventually grow to be more valuable, and keeps growing. Puissant never changes. Finally, an Affinity affects the actual Art score. Puissant only adds when you are using it, and thus does not apply under all circumstances (such as Teaching or writing Books).
7). Self Confident is the very best Minor Virtue for all character types. It is simply essential if yours is at all an action/adventure oriented character, or any other role where you expect to roll dice often. Doesn't affect xp, but it will be of such benefit to you, your character will likely obtain greater privileges and resources in the long run.
It's awesome to be sure, yet not necessarily the best. Here are some that are at least as good:
Minor Hermetic Focus: Extremely efficient!
Cautious Sorcerer: Because no one likes botch-ulism!
Affinity with Art: Better than GP for characters pushing that Art. But why not take both?
Deft Form: Pick your favorite. Mentem is especially fun!
Puissant (Magic Theory or Parma): Yum. Though technically not a Hermetic Virtue.
Inventive Genius: Not for everyone, but if you want it, it's better
I see where you're coming from on this. I also disagree. I think it is a clever bit of design work to have players communicate the kind of stories they want their characters to have, using game mechanics. AM is not the only game to do this, nor the first, nor the most elegant, yet it's here and I like it.
Sure, it's possible to run stories without flaws. But when something is labeled Story Flaw, a player knows he's signing up for hardship. (You have a Major Story Flaw: Diedne; you don't get to whine or act all surprised.)
I'd like to see this.
Please provide a link to the character you are referring to, privately if that's more appropriate.
How many seasons did he spend Mastering spells? How many Mastered spells does he have?
FM is a decent virtue, sure. I don't yet see what you're seeing.
Affinity quickly beats Puissant--for Arts, not Abilities. A specialist in an Art probably wants both!!! Affinity first, for the reasons you describe.
Roberto Rodruigez of Flambeau, my very favorite character of all time!
You have to scroll down. He is the second character in the Character Sheets section of Novus Mane (featured here on the Atlas Forums).
Everything is posted, everything he did in every season is listed in there. Five years out of Gauntlet, he started out with some pretty decent Mastery scores by combining Flawless Magic with Mastered Spells and Skilled Parens. Out of 22 seasons, he has actually only devoted two seasons towards practicing spell mastery. We are a poor covenant and have no mastery texts . He also spent four seasons inventing six new spells, each of which started out mastered (which is what makes FM so valueable in the first place!). I also spent some adventure xp from a season on Mastery. And the results of two seasons are still yet to be determined.
So so far, including creation, development, and free mastery with every spell, I have an equivilent of 92.5 bonus experience points of mastered spells. And I am still in struggle mode to get the covenant on its feet, I will devote substantially more time towards inventing spells and mastering them as I grow older. At the twenty year mark, I would expect to have saved over 200xp on mastered spells. Probably much more. And I would say that there is only one or two mastery picks I regret choosing, not that Mastery is wasted on the spell, I just wish I made a wiser choice.
My bad. I misedited. I fixed it above. I mean Self Confident. The Self Confident Character will wind up accomplishing more, gaining the most out of adventures, scoring the greater resources, making the better Charm or Bargain rolls when negotiating for books, and on down the line.
If I ever write up a magus for a saga you run, it's useful to know you see it this way!
However, I think that's saga specific.
Very saga specific.
If a SG is stingy with Confidence and forgets to give the guy with SC extra confidence, the virtue is worth much, much less. If the SG doesn't quite see eye to eye with the player about what deserves confidence, again.
The game mechanics of SC are ok: 2 extra cps to start and 2 can be used on a roll. Useful, but hardly setting a character above and beyond.
It also says countless times, in various supplements, that a flaw that doesn't hinder you is not a flaw, and thus shouldn't give you any points. Story flaws are a little different, in that they're here to draw you out of the lab, but still should obey this rule: It it's just fluff, you could roleplay it just as well.
As I understand, this is one of the reasons for this: As I told you before, if you know your story or personnality flaws aren't gonna spring up to bother you, from an optimisation pov, you should take as much of them as possible. Why bother?
In practice, better to be Proud or owe Favors (major flaws) than to be Lame or have Clumsy Magic (minor).
This is also the reason why I dislike allowing some characters to have more personnality/story flaws than others: In practice, they are less hindered, and I find this unfair.
This is what it should be, IMO.
In reality, it depends a lot of your GM, and his time. If he has 5 players, each with a major story flaws, how much will you suffer from it compared to, say, Careless Sorcerer?
And if he allows 2 major story flaws to each character? Will you ever be bothered enough by your diedne flaw?
Unless the GM spends his time on player flaws, the answer is probably no.
That's about the break-even point relative to Skilled Parens, since FM is a major virtue.
I note that you have taken many virtues that provide xp up front (warrior, skilled parens, mastered spells and flawless magic, for 6vp); this makes sense in a PBeM or other uncertain saga. You also took Puissant Arts rather than Affinities. You missed out on my favorite static xp-granting Virtue, Strong Faerie Blood. (Some folks are greedy, and see the "start aging at 50" aspect of this virtue as lengthening a magus' career. I see it as "ok, my character is 15 years older than he would be otherwise, and I'll take those 225xp right now. And oh cool, I have second sight, can see in the dark and have some faerie blood bonus.")
I'm not sure that this approach is better than a character with a focus, higher Arts and other tricks. In fact, I think it isn't. Roberto does have an advantage that the SG isn't going to notice a casting total of 60...
Affinity(Art)*2, Puissant(Art)*2, Skilled Parens, SFB, Major Magical Focus (or Minor Magical Focus, Book Learner and one more). Three more for Ex Misc.
300xp are available for magic. If a typical character becomes a magus at age 25, this guy does it at 40, providing 300 more xp for general abilities and second sight. Childhood xp as usual.
90 magic xp must go to:
Artes Liberales 1
Latin 4
Magic Theory 3
Parma Magica 1
This leaves 210xp for Arts, allowing 2 Arts to start at 17+3=20.
(Pausing for a moment, right out of Gauntlet, Roberto has around 250 extra xp from his 6vp; this guy has 396 extra xp from his 6vp of experience enhancing virtues. They have spent these xp very differently. Roberto will continue to earn xps from mastering spells. This guy will continue to gain xp from boosting his favored Arts; he also has Second Sight, can see in the dark and has a Faerie Blood Bonus of some kind; he will age slightly better even though he is 15 years older due to his +3 bonus to aging rolls, but this isn't an important advantage. Very different characters, and in terms of numbers I don't know which is better.)
Choose a focus that also covers your familiar. Animal foci are obvious, but other foci can also work. (Focus: Faeries, and bind a Faerie Familiar, but then you lose something else to gain Faerie Magic. Focus: The Sun and bind a lion or other animal king. Focus: Mercury and bind a carrier pigeon or other messenger. Depending on your personality and relationship with your familiar, Lucrum, Frates, Valetudo, Uxor might apply. Moving away from astrology, a focus in "knights and their accoutrements" could let you bond a horse. Or a focus in "ties" or "bonds." Others come to mind.)
First personal objective: find and bind a familiar using your two good Arts and the focus! This will be an awesome familiar, worthy of your binding total of ~70!!
Again, not saying this is better, but I also don't think this is worse. Spell Mastery is good, but of everything might be overkill.
My favorite storyteller of all time called Flaws "The Good Stuff". Because thats what gave her story ideas.
I like taking more flaws than normal, not taking points for them and just role playing it. Then when your dependent grows up or gets old and dies, you have back up flaws to substitute.
On the flip side of story flaws not mattering... if your virtues don't come into play I don't think your flaws should much either. I think the more your Virtues come into play the more your flaws should.
BTW you shouldn't use skilled parens as a gauge... it's got a hidden minor story flaw in it. Your relationship with your paren.
That and 30 levels of spells is either 1 season of time for an old magus or 10 years for an inept one out of apprenticeship. Other forms of xp can be compared, but depending on the character those 30 levels could mean an awful lot.
Oddly enough, that might make it worth more, not less! Minor story flaws tend to come with nifty benefits. Your parens might ask for a favor, but might also come to your aid in a big way. Still, the relationship in this case is very much up to the player to define, and it can be played as Patron, but also as something much less influential. The Virtue doesn't specify.
I think Skilled Parens should be the Tremere House Virtue.
I deliberately excluded them, treating them as 'something extra that's nice but hard to assess.'
Skilled Parens for a Tremere should make it more difficult for you to gain your sigil (and also assumes that your paren has your sigil).
I like FM just from a style point of few - being very very good with spells. Plus, the seasons it can save you is invaluable, especially in a saga where you are busy trying to step up/strength the covenant instead of all sitting around your labs all year.
Btw, what about the other virtues which grant XP (Arcane Lore, Educated, Warrior), how do you rate them?
Following up about 'what's good,'... in this thread I focused on virtues that grant experience over time, using Good Parens as a baseline for immediate xp gratification.
The actual value of xp is a different matter entirely!
The way I see it, the virtue of virtues lies in the capabilities they provide.
LLSM is a favorite, because it immediately allows access to any level 15 spell, and others too. Sure, there's a risk! Yet the player can choose the risk. It is a nasty risk too, which makes the virtue fairly priced.
By contrast, I like Cautious Sorcerer and always want to have it, yet it doesn't open capabilities; I see this as a supplemental virtue.
By contrast, I find Diedne Magic sub-par. It takes a long, long time for it to fulfill its potential and offer a character new capability.
Maxing out a TeFo does more than just give more of the same. It provides different kinds of spells. It provides penetration. It provides a better familiar. It makes teaching an apprentice more effective. It provides wide capabilities in almost 30% of all Hermetic Magic.
By contrast, I always want to increase characteristics because they offer broad value--yet the small benefit doesn't usually provide a new capability. Thus, given the choice between increasing Intelligence by one point or Magic Theory by two, I find the latter more attractive.
By contrast, maxing out all Hermetic casting offers diminishing returns. If my magus can solve a problem one way, being able to solve it a second and third way offers choices, but less capability. It also makes the character less interesting, because it's always fun to see how a character who only has a hammer manages to transform his problem into a nail.
My love for SFB isn't just about the 225xp I extract from it; that 225xp might be Second Sight 3, Folk Ken 2, four Craft skills at 1, Music 4, Carouse 3, Brawl 4.... These are capabilities too!
Bringing this back around to Warrior.... the 50xp it provides can be viewed as Some Weapon Ability 4. Which is a nice capability, if this is the hammer you want to give your magus. And, since Warrior lets you spend xp on weapon skills, why not be descended from a Faerie Knight, and give yourself 225xp of martial skills? (Or better yet, work with your SG on the faerie bonus of being a Faerie Knight, so you don't need Warrior anymore. I love SFB! It also attaches a character to real medieval mythology. Being related to demons or faeries explains how a wizard is a wizard quite nicely too.)
For virtues, this may be an evidence, but it depends a lot on the pace and length of your saga. In slow-moving sagas, virtues like skilled parens or warrior are much more valuable than if you're gonna play through 80 years of devellopment.
lol that's something I've been telling here and there over and over again: You don't have to have the Pagan flaw to be pagan, nor the Dependant flaw to be married, nor the Proud flaw to be proud.
And when your dependant gets old and die? You get his children as dependants
Just a couple points I think have been overlooked:
Independent Study: There are two important points. First, depending on the type of game being played or how you're playing your character, this can be far more effective than even than Book Learner. If the game is very slow-paced then you may be left with a situation where either you adventure or never use your character. Even if the game is a little faster-paced but your plan is to use that character a lot, this can still be good, especially if you use abilities that don't get written about much. Think of it as getting to not lose out when adventuring. That doesn't necessarily make it great, but it can. Second, if you have a low Magic Might, this can be fabulous. You need to practice or adventure or be instructed to do Transformation, but instruction is going to be hard to find.
Flawless Magic: You all are not necessarily adding the points properly. If you are going to master a bunch of spells, then the seasons spent doing so are probably spent getting fewer experience than you would receive studying something else. If you invent a new spell, then you'd be practicing to master it. The character without Flawless Magic would spend a season on the spell and a season mastering it at rank 1. The one with Flawless Magic could use that second season to study something else, which provides and average of about 10 experience with no bonuses. So, if you are planning to master most of your spells, that initial bonus can be worth closer to 10 experience than the 5 listed. Of course, if you're not planning on mastering spells, it's just not worth it. There's another important point, too: using a spare 10 or 20 lab total points here and there to learn a low magnitude spell or two along with taking Fast Casting can nearly allow such a mastery specialist to use spontaneous magic without dividing and without fatigue. These are things no one might normally consider mastering but can become extremely effective when mastered.
Tremere: I have considered using Minor Potent Magic in Certamen instead of the Minor Magical Focus, thus keeping nearly the same thing while freeing up the focus.
If by "slow pace" you mean that game time proceeds slowly, then both Independent Study and Book Learner suck, because the saga might play for years in real time while the magi adventure for five or six years. Better to take Skilled Parens and be done, because you'll never earn back the xp.
As soon as a lot of game time elapses between adventures, Independent Study become very eh.
In a game where every session, you have the choice between playing your character or having a lab season, Book Learner does become less interesting, and Independent Study more. But Skilled Parens becomes even more valuable by comparison, because having those xp up front as a hedge against dying is critical. In that game, I might go so far as to suggest that Cautious Sorcerer becomes mandatory. If the game doesn't run for 20 Adventures, Independent Study wasn't worth it.
In a game where the SG lets you spend seasons Adventuring without having to play them through (and there are a few ways to do this, some more reasonable than others), the virtue again increases in value. But now we're in the realm of house rules. Even so, reading books is almost always better, so getting extra xps for reading is better.
This was also not overlooked; note the discussion in the original post regarding gauging the value of FM in terms of seasons saved rather than xp.
And yes, once you're trying to optimize FM, it pays to learn a bunch of small spells in a single TeFo during a single season, because they all get mastery 1. I thought of this, but decided not to go here, because the essential discussion remains the same: Does it pay for your character to do this, other than 'look, more xp?' Does the character without FM feel at all tempted to master those spells? How many seasons does FM really provide, to be translated into other useful endeavors?
My bad i wrote to short, i meant of course including the limitation we run with as standard that those can only be triggered once per season.
Yeah, and if both are Techs you have a rather nice allrounder, while if its one Te and one Fo, you have a really nasty specialist. Oh yes very useful.
That depends alot on what kind of grog. Just as possible is 2-3 seasons adventure and 1-2 season practise. Makes it 10-11 xp/y instead.
After 5 years its only benefits then.
Lol... Same goes for Puissant. And in both cases its clearly stated in the rules book.
But i know how dastardly easy it is to miss things so dont worry, you´re in good company!
Not that i ever stuck to the restriction...
Yeah, both should always trigger on ANY xp(only exception being that bonus xp should never trigger it(ie bonus xp from SI should not be able to trigger EM)).
And if you want to make SI decent, have it include magical abilities as well as arts as a 3rd category, with xp gained in 2(or 3) arts/abilities in each of the other categories.
And set EM so that it gives 2xp per bonus art per triggering. This makes both worth having and im yet to have any problems with it being overpowering(and then you can also add for example Life Mage, like EM but including An,Co,He,Me).
Let xp bonus virtues be "active" retroactively. If the bonus is high or rarely triggers (Apt Student), assume it triggers once per year, if its low but triggers easily (Study Bonus), assume it triggers twice/y.
Or quiet or subtle casting, diluted duration, delayed casting, etc etc, there´s ALWAYS some mastery that can be useful.
/2--but let's assume he doesn't. He can also be injured and so on. On the outside, he has a useful career of 30 years. Let's call it 20.
. He also spent four seasons inventing six new spells, each of which started out mastered (which is what makes FM so valueable in the first place!). I also spent some adventure xp from a season on Mastery. And the results of two seasons are still yet to be determined.
