I didn't say this is how your Theban Tribunal should work, but that I can imagine it so. Sure, you are the owner, but a magus who is perceived to misuse something valuable and important that he owns, that could better help the community if used more appropriately, is likely to earn some disregard.
And yes. The potential of a tractatus-based economy has been discussed elsewhere in the forums. Certainly, an archmagus reading his way to power is more reasonable than his accumulating enough vis to do so and then not exploding first.
Certainly, I stand corrected: Some players do take the virtue and like it.
I think the big problem with Vis Study and XP-by-source virtues is that the other sources are rather good...And gamers have a strong tendency to be resource hoarders. People want to spend vis for magical items, longevity rituals, stat boosts, and permanent creation, not on big-but-brief rituals, or on XP when there's a way to gain xp elsewhere.
I think Apt Student is strong, but hermetic tradition can stigmatize someone who spends time learning from other magi - really strong if you're building an apprentice though.
Book Learner is really strong because Magi love books, tractati are relatively easy to obtain, and Good Teacher is a common virtue among players I've seen.
Independant study actually seems really good. It gives bonus xp on adventures - which fixes a common problem with adventures in that the player's can't sit down and read a quality 9(maybe +3) book of their choice, and instead have to go be productive with a season and get only 6 xp. It also makes practicing better, which is good for magi using Spell Mastery.
Study Bonus I've seen less of because my players don't like the idea of taking valuable books into dangerous situations.
By comparison, my players mostly only use Vis study when (A) they find a REALLY good aura [Most of my sagas have been aura 4-6 in the covenant] or (B) Need a fast boost of a low Art. I think the biggest cause of this is probably the vis cost, as vis is viewed as a finite resource. [Vis hoarding can be a problem]
My current idea (which I haven't gone through in depth mentally yet) is that Vis Study should get some kind of discount - probably based on the strength of the aura. My idea (again, need to go over numbers to solidify this) is that a magus can reduce their Vis-cost of studying by their Form Bonus by reducing the xp gained by the same amount (Min 1 vis).
I also think that there should be some ability to Practice an art without needing to expend vis - specifically, I remember an episode in Timothy Ferguson's podcast (I believe episode #1, actually) where he talks about necromancers dissecting and studying bodies, because he's a necromancer and wants to expand his knowledge. Except, you know, magi have zero actual reason to study their form in non-magical ways unless they specifically have the Study Bonus, and then they just need to be sitting around a bunch of corpses, not actually interacting with them.
All sources are not created equal: A virtue that adds some number of xp to a common and lucrative is better than one that adds that same number of xp from an uncommon or less lucrative activity. (Exposure is a pretty lucrative activity because it provides a seasonal benefit other than xp that cannot easily be obtained some other way; other activities are still often preferred.)
All destinations are not created equal: An xp that goes to a common and useful Art or Ability (eg Magic Theory, a favored weapon, Parma, Creo) is simply better than an xp that goes to something less useful (Area Lore: Somewhere I'm not likely to visit again). Virtues that grant the same number of xps might not be equally good, for all that the numbers are equal.
I hope I'm not saying anything too interesting here!
Part of the question is the quality of tractatus vs the potential for studying from vis, as well as how much vis is available. A Com 0 writer gets us a quality 6 tractatus... something hardly worth spending a season on. The best tractatus are around quality 17 using the covenant rules... but you probably won't be able to find 2 of those per year for your favorite art. The more tractatus you order, the more likely you're to get crap ones, due to the limit on quality tractatus. If the covenant build point limits are any indication, tractatus with quality of more than 11 are probably rare. YSMV on that point, but whereas there is a suggested price in vis for sound tractatus (Q11), excellent tractatus (Q14) don't have a suggested price, which kind of suggests there is more than just a vis cost attached at the very least. A Q11 tractatus is more of less equivalent to studying from vis in an aura 5, except the tractatus costs less but isn't reusable for the given spell user. On the other hand, find a single regio with an aura of 7 and an alignment to one of your arts, and you can study at stress dice + 14. Even an aura of 5 with an alignment gives you, on average, as much xp as the best tractatus will.
Are such auras common? Probably not. On the other hand, neither are tractatus Q17, and unlike those, you just need to find one per art you care about. Someone striving for archmagi has decades under his belt. Hopefully he hasn't been in his lab all the time, and may have found one such site and managed to get an arcane connection / stay friendly with any residents. Go back, and use it, over and over, whenever you have available vis. After 4 decades at your covenant, hopefully your vis stores are higher than they were at game start, and you've found additional vis sources (if not, did you stay in your lab for 40 years?). You now have a summer covenant, vis rich, and not as many need for a new high cost summae, since you can't benefit from them anyway. What do you do with your vis? For some, sure, I suppose magical items fit the build. But this is where study from vis shines, imho. Unless you're in a vis poor saga even after 4 decades. If this is the case, I can't help you.
Incidentally, the moment where I think Free Study shines is why I tend to prefer Study Bonus, because the same character can also start his visit strange occult field expeditions for inspiration habit that with books that will fuel his later learning from vis (for a while, anyway, since it varies by art how difficult it's to keep benefiting from the virtue). Much like Affinity is more powerful in long games than Puissant as you pointed, so too, I would say this:
Book learner: Best for a saga that last less than 20 or 30 years, since summae tend to be unbeatable during that time, moreso for versatile magi than for an obsessed TeFo specialist
Study Bonus: Best for a saga that lasts 20 to 50 years
Free Study: Best on magi that are 50+ years past gauntlet, and obssessed TeFo specialist before that.
Very true. Independent Study, for example, tends to be worst than Book Learner, Free Study and Study Bonus, if what you mostly care about are your art scores (unless you're a generalist), because you're forced to split your experience, and you typically get less xp than from other sources. On the other hand, if you really want a high score in Parma Magica, Penetration, Weapon, Craft, Spell Mastery or whatever supernatural virtue you have... it's a good virtue.
Quoting you a bit out of order; I don't think I alter your intent in doing so, but let me know.
I think this is the first place some of our assumptions diverge: I don't think it is all that easy to find an aura of 7 that is aligned to each Art you want to study and is safe for you to study in it an entire season.
I think that many games will (rightly, imo) ignore Aura alignment to Arts, except maybe for some rare story event. So I'm looking at die+7, not die+14. That might just be me, of course.
But even finding a normal Magic 7 safe study space is not trivial. In any game that I ran, you'd either have to make some sort of deal with whoever owned that place, or have claimed it for yourself, and if it's not fully protected by your covenant, perhaps because it is part of it, I'd certainly have to decide every season whether something disturbed you, perhaps by rolling a die behind the scenes.... though of course I'd tell you about it beforehand, since an experienced magus would be thoroughly aware that a Magic 7 Aura is highly desirable to all sorts of Things, that such places exist for a reason that is probably still active, and that such places are wondrous but perilous.
Again, that might just be me. Of course, if you and perhaps your covenant spend time and resources securing such a location, then it's yours, and enjoy. Still die+7, not die+14. Aligned+7 even more rare.
I don't think your assumption that a typical magus will find a safe, aligned Magic 7 for every Art is necessarily wrong. It's just different from mine.
I assume that a magus is likely to study from his local covenant Aura. Although the default is 3, I imagine that this magus will have a higher Aura. Maybe 7, for die+7... but I suspect that you too would see the world differently at die+7 rather than die+14.
(I admit a prejudice against aligned Auras as implemented; I look cautiously at rules added in various supplements. Often these are quite fine, but sometimes I wonder if these have been really thought through, and sometimes I don't wonder.)
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Neither is the vis spent. Reading also does not involve botches.
I admit to an odd feeling in this conversation, because my default assumptions in this forum has tended toward more powerful magi with better resources compared to the people I'm chatting with, yet here my default assumptions are less.
To wit: I tend to assume a steady stream of ~Q10 tractati for any Art a magus wants to study. Some are better, some worse, but it's the abstraction I've made (and I have noticed that a few sagas have adopted this suggestion, perhaps on their own.)
So I'm not even comparing to Q17.
Still. Assuming a magus with no special virtues, and summae that can take him to 15 in all Arts at Q10 (because why not, since presumably the magus who eventually studies from vis will want to start cheaply, if only because younger magi are less likely to have vis), that's 120xp*15Arts=1800xp - 150startingXP = 1650xp, or 165 seasons to read all of this. That's 40 years, assuming the magus does nothing else. With book learner, ~138 seasons, or 34.5 years doing nothing else.
So BL is doing better than this.
Do you prefer Q15 summae? That's 110 seasons, or ~97 for BL. Again, this is excluding any other activity: Adventures, apprentice training, covenant obligations, spells, items, longevity rituals...
I think 20-30 years understates things, at least for magi who intend to have solid Art scores all around.
And we haven't even considered tractati yet.
The time spent doing this has a cost. The vis spent has a cost. And as this magus gets older, that stress die become increasingly dangerous.
But of course, the elephant in the room is that you assume that of course this die+14 special place exists, and that in a reasonable saga, your magus will gain reasonably unfettered access to it.
How much vis do you expect your character to have? What about after factoring in the exchange rates? And the increasingly epic stories the covenant will need to resolve?
I admit that I'm curious.
No wrong answers here, and maybe my expectation/analysis is unreasonable, that 2 seasons per year (your estimate, above) studying from vis is neither too expensive nor too dangerous.
Again, assuming the price in time and resources for making these increasingly interesting places secure enough to study has been paid.
I love the idea behind this virtue, but expect that many GMs will want to inflict stories on a character with the virtue, to keep it from being a freebie. I also expect that many covenants will not like the idea of precious books being taken to dangerous places.
So... I consider it very unreliable? In some sagas it's great, in others worthless.
(If it were up to me, I'd make this virtue a standard rule for everyone, since it's so evocative, perhaps rebalancing everything down by 1xp, so that studying Arts with/without the bonus provides a net mild bonus/penalty.)
Even in much shorter games. 102-105xp in an Art is a break-even point, and this can be (should be! / 5918234938472389) achieved during character creation.
Under my assumptions, BL is great, Study Bonus depends, and Free Study is dubious. I'd probably see things your way in a saga you describe though! Plenty of vis and exotic Auras.
Assuming this is true, my original post remains valid, about needing to guess the length of a saga to pick the right virtue. If you pick Free Study because you expect the saga to run 50 years past Gauntlet, but are 20 years shy (which is still a pretty long run!) you didn't get much from the virtue. Affinity with the one or two Arts you really care about (for those sweet exotic Auras you find) is probably a better choice.
Rare? Yeah, we agree on that. Again, bear in mind I'm talking a long term game. We're talking about places found over a span of decades. Unless your game fast-forwards a lot, even rare builds up over time. Unless you have five years between each story, anyway. If you find a good spot, and you survived without running away afraid for your life, why not go back?
I don't think a typical magus will find a safe aligned Aura of 7 in every art, no. But I do think it's likely you'll see more than one or two down over time. You really don't need to boost 15 arts, so neither do you need to find 15 aligned regio. Also safe is relative and preparation helps. If you know you're entering an Ignem aligned aura, expect fire elementals and fire-breathing dogs, and come with your circle of warding and personal fire protection spells handy. Most likely you're going there because you're already focusing on your Ignem and shouldn't be particularly weak to fire. If the area is swarming with creatures, but none beat your magic circle vs Might 30, you're safe. If the danger is the floor is ablaze,
That is true, yes, however bear in mind there's something called the golden cord. You need to have a fairly high art score for your golden cord not to negate your botch die, if you are worried about warping. If you have a golden cord of 4, with an Art of 30, it's just two botch dice. Unlikely to be a risk of Twilight. And if you like to neglect the golden cord or you're a bjornaer, lab safety does help as well, although that does negate the bonus from finding several auras (unless you also have a mobile lab, which most magi won't). It's excessively easy to get a good safety score if you care.
I'm not talking trivial. But I'm hoping you're seeing some? Even without adventuring, high level auras (6-9) are not that rare in the published covenants. There's usually 2-3 hermetic covenants per tribunal with one.
Well if you decide some rules are better not used, we're talking about a different world indeed. I consider the realm of power books to be pretty much as core as the house ones.
Perhaps we make very different magi. I said 20-30 years because most magi don't care to master 15 arts to 15 before focusing their research further.
There are no good answers here, because vis availability varies by saga. That being said, I would tend to think that increasingly epic stories means increasingly available vis (even if you also spend some to resolve them), for the simple reason that every magnitude of might that you kill yields 1 vis pawn unless you deal with it via perdo vim, that the creatures with high Might also tend to live in high level auras, and that high level auras are more likely to have a renewable vis source in it than the local aura 1.
True. Most of those magi eventually do want to boost their secondary Arts into the teens or to 20, and will eventually get the full benefit from reading summae.
Hmm. I kind of see AM like GURPS, in that there are many supplements to use, and although it is possible to use all of them, it might not be a great idea. AM supplements do not just add rules to the core game, they also change the core game.
For example, using all the rules in Covenants provides a significant power boost. The RoP:M rules for expending or creating vis in an Aura make these activities less attractive. The House Bonisagus described in :TL seems a house deep in Winter, not at all what I might expect from reading just the core book. And so on. Both fluff and crunch in supplements deserve evaluation before being admitted to a saga, I think.
I have never seen a Golden Cord of 4, let alone 5 and beyond that is impossible, and 4 is necessary to raise an Art from 16 with no botch dice and 5 to raise an art from 21 with no botch dice (discounting the worst virtue in the game, Cautious Sorcerer).
Huh? How does RoP:M make the rules in Covenants unattractive? Like at all. You might improve your aura? In all my Ars playing I have seen even less vis extraction than vis study which I myself have performed. Maybe once I've seen someone extract vis from an aura.
Golden Cord does not remove the last botch die, iirc.
Certainly vis extraction is worth avoiding if it can deplete a covenant's Aura. Otherwise, I'm surprised no one felt the need for extra resources in any of your sagas, or set up an apprentice in a spare lab during a non-teaching season. (A bit less surprised that no one ever initiated Greater Philosophical Alchemy and then used it almost for free.)
I tend to go for 3 very often. 4 is rare, yes, but given how much he seems to be worried about botching on a vis study check, it was worth pointing it out. And do you really consider Cautious Sorcerer the worst virtue in the game? (on a non-criamon)
1% botch chance is worth 10% chance to explode on your dice. If you're not twilight prone, there should be no concern.
So I'm replying to Ovarwa quoting Temprobe about Study Bonus here. I don't expect many GMs to inflict stories on a character with the virtue, because in my experience magi with Study Bonus try to make their labs better places to study, or try to build impressive features within the covenant (such as large water features, or planting a perfect garden, or a menagerie) to improve their study, and so Study Bonus acts as an encouragement to make better covenants.
I suppose this points toward my other reservation about Study Bonus: A magus might go ahead and do just as you describe, creating locations worthy of the virtue. But for how long? Every few levels of Art score development, the intensity needed to achieve the bonus increases. Sure, your garden might be worthy for Herbam 10, and your mighty forge for Ignem, but all too soon (especially for the senior magi discussed here) these locations become obsolete, even the volcano suggested in the virtue description has been left behind at Ig30.
I think Careful Sorcerer is the worst virtue, period. Magic should be mich less safe than it is even by the standard rules, particularly lab work though the experiment rules provide more risk than they should and less reward for undertaking that extra risk. As always, IMO. I love botches even when it doesn't lead to Twilight. I will admit that long periods of "character is out of play" sucks and in a perfect world that part would be changed some. Temprobe and I differ greatly in this way and was quite shocked recently when I was hoping for more botch dice and happy to roll them and bummed none came up 0. I freely admit this preference of mine is "heretical" on this forum and on the Ars discord.
On the other hand, the absolute best flaws for magi in the game are Unpredictable Magic (I think that is what it is called, the minor that makes you always roll a stress die when casting, and even grants a chance to botch on non-fatiguing sponts) which I love because it removes the worst thing about Spell Mastery which is great except for removal of last stress die and Twilight Prone.
Study Bonus is great for generalists many of the options for moving from level 10 and below are relatively easy to find and take advantage of. 15 you're moving into "you need more significant narrative justification" territory which likely should include a story and/or protective magics for you or what you are studying from. Using it when raising arts above 20 can be pretty brutal and finding/securing a worthy site for some period most definitely should be a story in itself and almost definitely requires protection of sone sort depending on the Art involved.
IMO, Art-aligned magic auras of significant strength should meet this for their Art at roughly the same basic aura level (as in the score before the bonus doubling from the Art-alignment) that we see for Vim study bonus locations, except for Vim which should be doubly effective since the main example there is any magic aura. That said, they should be pretty darn rare and require more complex versions of Feeling the Font of Power or whatever other aura detection spell that give more info and can determine its alignment. They also should have resident powerful beings or environmental threats based on the Art involved at high levels and therefore require story to use for a time. Make nice with the Sentient blob whose ideas form as it thinks them in that weird strong aura that is Mentem-aligned.
yes, magic should be less safe. Makes for much more fun and players being more careful in behavior rather than meeting every challenge with Pillum of Fire or ReMe "swords to cut social gordian knots".
You are of course entitled to your own opinion on this, but I suspect you are in a very small minority when you want magic to be less safe and botches to happen more often.
/ 5918234938472389) achieved during character creation.