Vis and Nature Lore

One of the benefits of Nature Lore (Merinita Mystery Virtue) is that at level 3 you can find vis after a few days of looking.

So here's the question: how much?

I'm thinking that you find a number of vis equal to your score in (Nature) Lore, as this is essentially free vis, and any more seems a bit much.


180 of Creo Vim Lab Total seems excessive. 72 (and x/5) seems more reasonable and closer to the xp spent.

My example gave the maximum likely amout if you had Perception 05 , Nature Lore at 10 in an Aura of rating 10.
If someone had these stats and searched for 3 days in a rating 10 aura , they deserve a large amount of vis.
I did not suggest that you actually use the CrVi Lab Total , just giving it as a ballpark figure for comparison.

Compare the xp spent on both Arts with that spent on Nature Lore for a better evaluation.
Nature Lore 10 = 275xp
Cr 17 = 153xp , Vim 15 = 120xp. 153 +120 = 273xp.

Nature Lore is an extra ability to sink xp into , as well as Magic Theory and Arts.

15ish pawns for 3 of your 10 free days every season, vs 7ish for a full season in the lab. Even with the Major Philosophic Alchemy you'd have to stay in the lab the whole season.

You might ask Erik Dahl, who wrote the Merinita section of HoH:MC and is on the Forum!

My own idea is the following. The original source for Nature Lore is the Forest Lore ability found in Guardians of the Forest. This allows you to "commune" with the local Genius Loci - that can produce, as a magic power, up to 1 pawn per year per point of Might. So we are probably talking of 2-5 rooks/year here. This is quite a bit.

However, note that the fact that you know the vis is there, does not mean you can harvest it. First of all, the vis source might already be claimed by someone else - magi of the Order, hedge wizards (folk witches can dowse for vis), magical creatures etc. And even if (and especially if) it is unclaimed, it might be hard to harvest. No free lunch, but lots of story opportunities there!

As i said , just giving an extreme example , to see what the upper limits are.

Someone with Major Philosophic Alchemy:

But as you need Hermetic Alchemy to get Philosophic Alchemy ,
i agree , that a lesser amount of vis , that only takes 03 days to find , is more balanced.

One thing I know is that this Ability allows you to find Vis, not new vis sources.This will be one-off vis locations, nor regular harvest sites. I think the notion is that through one's link with the area, a magus can easily find these normally very difficult to find, but actually quite common, occurances of non-recurring vis sources in the wild.

These all seem like really high totals, considering that this is a free personal Vis source that takes no more than a few days of spare time a season.

I think it will be (Nature Lore)/2 per season. That's 12 per year for the average nature maga, as a personal source as a fractional benefit of a minor virtue, which is still a huge, huge hairy deal.

Looking ahead, Wilding, a Major Virtue, makes you spend a whole season to collect Nature Lore x 2 pawns of pseudo-Vis from a wild territory, which must be immediately used for spell casting or rituals.

As a minor virtue with tonnes of other benefits, it would be perverse to allow Nature Lore to even approach that quantity.

I think it will also be limited to "natural" vis: herbam, terram, animal, aquam and auram, as with Wilding.

Ooo, ezzelino used my full name, and so like a jinni I am compelled to appear. :wink:

I think I purposefully left this up to the storyguide, because if we state specific amounts of vis it can really mess with the saga. The storyguide has to decide if there's any vis to be had in the natural environment, and if so what the appropriate amount would be. I personally like the idea of measuring it like a personal vis source, with the same maximum yield per season, but of course it's not at all reliable like the Virtue since it requires adventures to harvest, and there is no guarantee that there's any vis around at all—especially if the character has already scoured the area recently. But in an emergency, I was thinking players could use this like a one-time vis sniffer ("What's that boy? You say there's a magic bone buried under the oak in that field there? Who's a good boy? You are! You are!") to get enough vis to do an important ritual or something like that. It shouldn't be considered a vis dispenser like later Mysteries, but if there's vis around to be had, knowledge of the natural surroundings within a specialized focus should tell the character where to look. :slight_smile:

Thanks, that's a big help and it makes a lot of sense. Also keeps makes sure smug Huntress Bjornaer actually has to be a part of the Covenant, not just rely on Forest Vis dispenser.

About wilding: (i'm not talking about nature lore)

What uses have you imagined about the vis it provides?

The major flaws are:

  • only usable by Wilding mystery initiated
  • last few days (i decided 2d10 in my online saga).

=> no trading, no labwork


  • boost spellcasting
  • ritual
    (edit - boost familiar of a wilding magus)

For a full season which can proide something like maximum 20 pawns of "elemental" or "natural" forms... is it worth the cost of a major virtue? Is it interesting? Do you have idea useful to improve it? or new ideas of uses?

I do not have HOH:MC, but if something can provide you with 20 pawns per season, it is well worth a major virtue IMS. That is one third of our yearly vis income for the covenant (before vis extraction), andf this is the saga where we have had the most vis of all the sagas we have been in.

The problem is the vis will last only a few days, only those innitiated in the mystery does see it as vis and can use it and the forms are Animal/Aquam/Auram/Herbam/Ignem/Terram....
So there is no way to use it to cast aegis, to trade for other vis or even to improve oneself.

In short, you spend 1 season hoping than in the first week of the following season you will have to cast a big boosted spell or a ritual of those forms.

I have some ideas, but a major virtue? not sure at all.

Huh, I think you are mixing Nature Lore, the minor Outer Mystery, and Wiling, the major Inner One. I see nothing in Nature Lore saying the vis is not regular vis.

On the other hand, for game balance if nothing else, since this is a minor virtue that has other benefits, the yield should be somewhat inferior to a personal vis source, or at most comparable. Of course it also depends on the character willingness to travel to remote and untapped regions, where there is more chance of finding vis. After all, any magus capable of sponting a minor InVi effect can see vis if he walks by, so well-travelled regions (say around Durenmar) shouldn't have much vis lying around to begin with.

Wilding explicitely states that the vis discovered while doing a season of wilding is temporary and last only a few days. It's in the virtue description.

Nature lore is only used as the ability, times 2 which determines the amount of vis created in the season in natural objects.

Sorry, I mixed your question and the original one in the post.

Yeah, normally I would have started a proper thread, but I felt like this one was an oppotunity to avoid to do so... I have created so much threads I was hoping to not do one more if I could prevent it :smiley:

I think that is pretty much the idea. If you know you have a ritual or rituals to cast at the beginning of Spring (say), then you can spend Winter getting the required vis. It is more about planning than hoping that you will cast a ritual.

I think that another important use could be that if you are planning on declaring Wizard War (or doing something else vis intensive, like Going On An Adventure) then you can time things so that you have a window of a few days where you have a great big stock of vis to use.

Can you also use Wilding Vis on your Longevity Ritual? Not the invention of it, but a repeat when the existing one fails. Some characters use exotic vis (i.e. not Creo, Corpus, or Vim) in their Longevity Rituals. If you are the sort of hippy hedge wizard that has Wilding, you may well also have a non-conventional Longevity Ritual.

I see your point about trading, but if you happen to know another magus with Wilding (say you are a member of a Mystery Cult that initiates this Virtue!) then you can trade with that magus (assuming he has a planned use for it).