Vitkir & Eternal Life?

As you use Dagaz to modify your Aging Roll, could you use the following to simply ward away the process of aging itself, circumventing the need to even make an aging roll?

I (Runemaster) Persist Through the Ages
Algiz 10, Dagaz (Target), Method I

Regardless of methodology; Warping will remain an issue...

For the record, I'd allow that spell to provide a minor bonus to aging rolls. Sort of like a longevity ritual. If you raise the effect level, I'd raise the bonus. I would not let it remove the need for the roll.

If more powerful and exceptionally argued at my table, I might be willing to consider using it to delay when an aging roll occurs instead of allowing a bonus to those rolls.

That's an explicit general effect of just the Dagaz rune; +/-1 per magnitude to Aging rolls, no Algiz required. This whole question is related to the Algiz (Perth) 10 spell discussion that gave a good argument for essentially total immunity to targeted spells.

That violates the Limit of Aging, and unless we know for a fact that vitkir can break that particular Limit, then it probably applies to them.

The Limits are explicitly only applicable for Hermetic Magic, which Vitkir Magic most certainly isn't.

Ahahaha. Not exactly.

Emphasis mine. While Mythic Alchemy does, in fact, break a Greater Limit, and Solomonic magic runs roughshod over multiple Limits (Aging among them), I stand by my statement that Viktar is bound by the Limits except where it specifically says otherwise.


Which Greater Limit does it break? Not disagreeing, just don't remember.

Solomonic Magic does stretch limits. :slight_smile: It doesn't quite break any greater limits.



Arguably, all the immortality mysteries break the Limit of Essential Nature.

Whenever I read that the Parma is the only known Hermetic Breakthrough, I always think the Order must be unaware of The Greater Elixer or Ascendancy to the Hall of Heroes.


Unless they all kill the celebrant and leave Something Else in his place. The suicide ghost mystery is blatant about this.

(The Criamon mysteries do seem to qualify)

Mythic Alchemy allows for true transformation (not merely improvement or weakening) of matter, which violates Essential Nature.

And no, Solomonic Magic doesn't break Greater Limits. It breaks two Lesser Limits, fhough: Aging (through Al-Iksir, which does allow true reduction of age) and Energy (that limit is not present in Solomonic magic). It also bends the Limit of Creation - specifically, allowing magic to make permanent alterations to qualities of matter (that do not violate Essential Nature) without vis, Finesse or material components.

Hmm. I need to review that more closely. I left with the impression that it stayed just within bounds, or that alchemy was not quite magic, but maybe I just didn't pay close enough attention.

It sort of allows true reduction of age, but not fully: It does not unwind Decrepitude and does not unwind the need to make aging rolls.



Mythic Alchemy is pretty clearly magic, not Experimental Philosophy. It's a Supernatural Ability, and its placement in the Magic Realm is further confirmed on TC&TC 91 (where it discusses a Divine version).

The reason that it exists is that there ought to be a way for alchemists to turn lead into gold somehow - the Lapis Maior is essentially an alchemist's masterwork. But it does break Essential Nature - I'm okay with this, as breaking Essential Nature (both to turn lead into gold and to become immortal - which have much the same connotations) is kind of the point of alchemy as a discipline.

Reducing Age alone breaks both the wording of the Limit ("halt or reverse natural aging") and the spirit; while a sahir cannot remove Decrepitude, he can prevent himself from ever getting any in the first place if he takes an Al-Iksir every twenty years. (Where'd the guy who was proving this go, anyway? :cry:)

You mean ezze and his 400 years sahir and discussion threads?

That's the one. He stopped the experiment before it ran its course.

Anyway, the idea that immortal sahirs are not difficult to get even without heavy optimization stands, so Limit of Aging is broken.

It's confusing because the same alchemists use both "chemical" alchemy and "mythic" alchemy. The chemical one is akin to Rego and the mythic one is akin to permanent Muto, and requires vis.

Transforming lead to gold feels much more appropriate than creating gold ex nihilo ala Hermetic Magic.

I suspect that the Order of Hermes misunderstands the Limit of Essential Nature and that it will eventually be found to read something like the Limit of Creation, prohibiting permanent effects without the use of raw vis.

Ahemm. I really really want to go back to that one.
It's just that the project came under some severe criticism for its "experimental" premises and some rules interpretations that I decided I had to restart it from scratch. But I'll get back to it!

When I was writing the rules for Al-Iksir, I intended to walk right up to the Limit of Aging but not actually break it-- I thought the wizards who represent the setting's best alchemists and physicians should have a fantastic longevity potion that feels very different from the Order's, and is arguably better than theirs. They are manufacturing and drinking a poor copy of the Water of Life, and so the things it does to the body should feel suitably miraculous.

Mechanically, I decided to interpret the phrase "natural aging" as referring to Decrepitude as far as the Limit of Aging goes. Sahirs can't halt or reverse the accumulation of experience points in their Decrepitude scores, which is what will eventually cause them to die of old age. The character's numerical age only affects the outcome of the Aging roll, but it's the Aging Points and their effect on Decrepitude that represent "natural aging."

As far as the spirit of the Limit goes, it is well-established that different traditions can trade longevity for other negative effects. Hermetic magi don't typically die from aging, they effectively die from Warping. Al-Iksir too has a cost; the penalties that sahirs trade for Al-Iksir are interesting, and certainly more severe than just gaining Warping Points. I think a sahir who drinks Al-Iksir continually to keep his mortal body young will soon go mad in one way or another-- and players can use that to make really interesting stories for the other characters in the saga, I imagine. :slight_smile: (Old sahirs turn into antagonists, I think.)

Yes, the sahirs do break the Limit of Energy, but that felt like kind of a letdown because it's just copying with Solomonic magic what mundane medicine can do.

Regarding the original post, I think it's a clever idea to use Algiz with Dagaz. It could be argued that this would ward away light as well as time passing. I might be willing to allow it in a game I ran, but I would probably attach some rider to it, like that when the rune is broken the vitki must make all the rolls that have been put off. So basically it would be a time bomb to use when death from old age seems imminent. Or suppose it effectively put the vitki in Twilight, invisible and unable to affect the world for the duration but also not affected by it-- also kind of cool from a "ward away the light of day" standpoint. How adventurous is this hypothetical vitki?

Fair enough. I personally consider it a broken Limit because you can ultimately get a 400-year-old ashir with limited drawbacks, but I'm okay with Solomonic Magic breaking multiple limits - it's the most developed Rival Magic out there and the widest-practiced by far. And either way, I'm rather splitting hairs. :stuck_out_tongue:

Now you're selling it short. Solomonic versions of Experimental Philosophy can do, either in seconds or in an hour or so, something that would take seasons of work to do as an experimental philosopher, and with the aid of either a spirit or simply the Art, can do things that they wouldn't be able to comprehend a Lab Text for. In particular, even weak sahirs with Physic can easily wipe away short-term fatigue at no cost, and while this doesn't break the game like wiping long-term fatigue for free would (Solomonic integration of Hyperborean Hymns? :smiling_imp:), it's something that magi who weren't completely in the grip of Not Made Here would kill to have.

Pretty sure that was accidental. Anyway they don't actually halt aging. Mechanically they always have a chance of getting more decrepitude, but as long as they keep studying the chance drops so fast they might never die. Less mechanically you would probably describe it as the age increasingly slowing down. Never stopping, but never getting to the end. First you age at half rate for a decade. Then 25% rate for a decade. Then 12.5% rate for a decade. Etc. No matter how many decades pass you'll never age a full decade. And if the Sahir had 12 years left when this started well...

Edit: Yeah, I was right about it not being intentional

Theorycraft being all well and good, but a Sahir is a mortal and can be killed, and those that deal in magic lead lives with significant danger. Can live forever isn't really a problem in any game setting, even one where time passes quickly like Ars Magica.

It might lead to the issue of "So where are all the immortal Sahirs?", but the easy answer is kind of built in; they died of injuries or went nuts.