Huh? I think you've misread something. You have to perform "elaborate rituals" to manage such a spell. While it doesn't go into specifics, "elaborate rituals" is pretty clearly a distinction from "standard voice and gestures," isn't it?
Using non-standard words and gestures is an option only available for non-ritual magic. See ArM5 p83
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Really? Don't you get to add Artes Liberales and Philosophiae by deviating from the standard voice and gestures to these elaborate rituals instead of just +2 for going from standard to loud/exaggerated?
That doesn't imply what you say it does. Requiring non-standard words and gestures does not make non-standard words and gestures an option.
Is there anywhere a requirement to use non-standard words and gestures? (As opposed to not being able to cast a spell unless you use non-standard words and gestures.) If not, your comment makes no sense.
Is there anywhere that states, or even implies, that Ritual spells can be cast with anything other than a firm voice and bold gestures?
@David_Chart I'm not sure if this should be split off for rituals separate from fast casting or not. This thread arose from the same ideas about both. There is a lot, but far from complete, cross-over between them. Would you like a separate thread?
Ritual spells are like Formulaic spells, but they take longer to cast, and involve both elaborate rituals
It explicitly says "elaborate rituals," as compared to "firm voice and bold gestures." Let's reverse the question. Can you now find a quote that says ritual magic is cast with "firm voice and bold gestures"?
ArM5 p83 states that "Spells are normally cast with a firm voice and bold gestures."
The text then goes on to explain how non-ritual spells can be cast differently.
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You do recognize that quote comes from inside "Non-Ritual Spells" and immediately following "non-ritual magic," right? So the book has explicitly identified that it is not discussing ritual spells there. So that statement is describing formulaic and spontaneous spells, but not ritual spells. It does not apply by any rules of logic to ritual spells. So I ask again, can you now find a quote that says ritual magic is cast with "firm voice and bold gestures"?
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No. You add Artes Liberales and Philosophiae because you are casting a Ritual, and you are not deviating from "standard voice and gestures" (in fact, you cannot): you are using the (firm) voice and (bold) gestures standard for Ritual casting, which may well be different from the voice and gestures standard for Spontaneous and Formulaic spellcasting but follow the same mechanics (e.g. in terms of how far R:Voice reaches).
There's a subtle fallacy in this argument. The discussion as a whole may be about non-Ritual spellcasting, but the individual sentence may well be about spells in general, stating a "standard" to which all generally adhere, but from which Spontaneous and Formulaic ones can deviate.
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Now you're just redefining terms to make it look one way. It would be just as valid for me to say you cannot deviate from using the (loud) voice and (exaggerated) gestures standard for Ritual casting, which also may well be different from the voice and gestures standard for Spontaneous and Formulaic spell casting. Doing either isn't really helpful.
I'm not disagreeing about not being able to change the standards for ritual casting. I'm disagreeing with your disagreement about my objection to what ErikT is saying. Notice how ErikT has been saying that the statement about formulaic magic's and spontaneous magic's normal voice and gesture stuff also applies to ritual magic, even though the statement is explicitly not about ritual magic?
Your logic is backward; you're countering essentially the converse of what I said, not what I said. That is not a fallacy at all to the argument. Notice how I have not said that statement disallows bold voice and firm gestures, which is what you're now arguing against. I have said it does not say rituals so use bold voice and firm gestures. Since the statement is specifically about non-ritual spells, it simply says nothing about ritual spells at all. Therefore using it to make a statement about ritual spells is completely lacking logic.
Not really. Because, for example, I can safely assume that when casting Rituals one cannot be immobile or seriously constrained (gestures are bold, not subtle) and I can also safely assume that R:Voice carries only to 15 paces or so (voice is firm, not booming). So, whenever some mechanic of the game depends on Voice and Gestures, even with Rituals I can look at the "Firm and Bold" line, and use that.
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I agree that part of the mechanics is left vague. But can you find me a single thing that shows you don't use Voice Range for "loud" rather than "firm" voice with rituals? The only thing I have ever seen is
Ritual spells are like Formulaic spells, but they take longer to cast, and involve both elaborate rituals
I have never seen anything saying "firm voice" nor "bold gestures" for ritual spells. And so far no one has been able to provide a quote that says so. Is there actually a statement of that? Or has it just been an assumption a lot of people have grabbed accidentally as ErikT showed above?
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I disagree, but I don't think I can add much more to this line of the discussion (which is seriously derailing the thread). I'll bring up one last example, and then quit. Imagine there's a paragraph with the title "Weather in Britain", saying "People generally like a balance of rain and sunshine. However, if you are living in Britain, you should forget about the sunshine: British weather can be warm, cold or cool, but every single day is grey and wet." The first sentence cannot be assumed to apply only in Britain, or to British people.
Please note that I am not saying that the first sentence of the Voice and Gesture paragraph necessarily applies to all spells. I am saying that it's a fallacy to automatically assume that it only applies to non-Ritual spells because it's in a section about non-Ritual spells. It could just as well be a general statement about all spells, within a more focused discussion about non-Ritual ones.
Dude, that's what I've been saying all along. I've been objecting to people saying that statement necessarily applies to all spells. I've been saying the only statement we have about voice and gestures that necessarily applies to ritual spells is the vague
Ritual spells are like Formulaic spells, but they take longer to cast, and involve both elaborate rituals
So why are you disagreeing with me if you're now making sure we note you are agreeing with me?
The first sentence talks about "Spells". Since there are no qualifications it should apply to all spells, Ritual, Formulaic, and Spontaneous. Note that nowhere else is there a rule for what kind of words and gestures are normally used for any kind of spellcasting.
If that sentence does not apply to ritual spells, then we have no information at all on what kind of words and gestures are needed or normally used when casting ritual spells.
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