If a Bjornaer turns into their elemental heartbeast form, what guideline do you use for warding against them. Using a stone bear as an example, when making a ReTe ward against them; do you presume they are a creature of magic-aligned Might 0, and thus a ward of any strength (leaving aside debates regarding penetration) can stop them, or do you use the Base 25 guideline for making a ward against stone?
The elemental form achieved by The Mystery of the Anima (HoH:MC p32) is an elemental being aligned with Magic, not just a piece of elemental matter.
So the stone bear can be warded against by either an (ArM5 p.155 box Rego Terram Guidelines) "Ward against stone creatures from one realm" - namely Magic - or a an (ArM5 p.161 box Rego Vim Guidelines) "Ward against creatures with Might from one realm" - again Magic.
Both spells are very similar: just that one uses Te, and the other Vi. Both also are resisted (by HoH:S p.113 box Wards and Penetration).
There are also ReTe spells just warding against stone: (ArM5 p.155 box Rego Terram Guidelines) "Keep all dirt away from your body or ward a target against dirt" with one extra magnitude to ward against stone. These would also be resisted by the Bjornaer, just as a spell based on (ArM5 p.134 box Rego Corpus Guidelines) "Ward a target against other human beings" is resisted.
Don't have HoH:MC in front of me, but does an Elemental Heartbeast have Might? It sounds like we are talking about a living Bjornaer, not Great Beast.
Also, doesn't a Ward against mundane Humans, or a Ward against Mundane Animals work against Bjornaer magi, presuming the wards penetrate the Parma?
A ward against humans wouldn't affect a Bjornaer in Heartbeast form. But a ward against Terram creatures would stop a stone bear Inner Heartbeast Bjornaer, if it penetrates his Parma. Same as a ward against humans would need to enetrate against the Bjornaer in human form.
I don't think either ReVi or Re(Form) wards against creatures of Might will affect the Inner Heartbeast; they don't have any. One example of this are the Nightwalkers; their phantasticums (spirit forms) aren't affected by the Aegis or ReVi wards, for the lack of Might.
What you'd need are wards geared towards whatever elemental matter the Inner Heartbeast became. Still gotta penetrate the Bjornaer's Magic Resistance tho.
Why would (ArM5 p.155) "Wards against stone creatures from one realm" - or similar wards against air, water or fire creatures - require a positive Might of such creatures to ward them off?
The same for (ArM5 p.161) "Ward the target against creatures with Might less than or equal to the level of the spell." No Might would be zero Might for the purpose of wards, right?
Because "No Might" isn't the same as Might 0. It's not how Hermetic Magic works. For example; if that were the case; Rego Corpus Ward against Supernatural Creatures (General Guideline) would work on mundane humans as well. A mundane man being affected by such Wards is a feature of certain flaws, like "Viaticarus".
Otherwise, you wouldn't need any other warding guideline then the general one.
I didn't say so. See:
The difference is, that a Bjornaer in "spiritual or elemental form" (HoH:MC p.32 The Mysteries of the Anima (Major House Mystery)) is not mundane, but a supernatural creature: a moving stone bear doesn't occur naturally, or does it?. No: that Bjornaer is at least as supernatural as the Viaticarus from Grogs p.85.
Let's use the example of Nightwalkers for this one; they're fairly similar to the Inner Heartbeast in this regard. They got no Might, but are able to manifest a Spiritual Form. Check Hedge Magic, page 116.
"Nightwalkers have no Might, so
they are not held at bay by the Aegis of the
That is how Might Wards work. You either have Might, or you don't. In latter case there is simply nothing to affect, so they don't work on creatures without Might.
A Bjornaer Inner Heartbeast may take the shape of a Supernatural Beast, but it has no Might at all. It's no more "supernatural" in this context than a Magus shapeshifting into a Dragon with a spell. A Bjornaer with an Inner Heartbeast only gains a Might Score when he reaches Final Twilight.
Not so. Your quote cannot be read as "no Might, so they are not held at bay by the Aegis of the Hearth". Why? Because (Grogs p.85) a Viaticarus, who clearly has no Might, is still "repulsed by any magical warding that can keep out a creature with a Might score aligned to Corpus or Mentem (including the Aegis of the Hearth), ..."
This only shows that some supernatural beasts don't have positive Might.
To see this more clearly, check RoP:M p.34f Magic Might: Grog-level Magic Characters in low power sagas not only can, but shall have Might 0.
Especially in the Core ArM5, there is no clean distinction between
- not supernatural
- no Might
- Might 0
This requires some judgement when reading.
And that trait of a Viaticarus comes specifically from him being a Viaticarus. It's their specific feature and an exception to the usual rules, not the norm.
That is literally what it says...
And the Viaticarus makes sure, that what holds for the Nightwalker wrt Aegis doesn't hold in general and everywhere.
Core Book, page 157. Vim Form explanation.
"It should be noted that Hermetic magi, and
some non-Hermetic wizards, do not have Might
scores, and thus are not affected by wardings or
other spells that act against Might scores."
But still, some guidelines like (ArM5 p.155) "Wards against stone creatures from one realm" do not explicitly require, that the beings warded against have any might score at all, and others, like (ArM5 p.161) "Ward the target against creatures with Might less than or equal to the level of the spell", do not require positive might scores.
So our clever and mobile stone bear exists because of a Major Bjornaer House Mystery and is hence supernatural and aligned to Magic. So it can be warded with spells based on the guideline (ArM5 p.155 box Rego Terram Guidelines ) "Ward against stone creatures from one realm".
So it makes sense, that it also can be warded by spells based on the symmetrical Vim guidelines (ArM5 p.161 box Rego Vim Guidelines ) "Ward against creatures with Might from one realm". So our stone bear has hence Might 0.
The tricky thing here is, that a Bjornaer maga in heartbeast form needs to really become her heartbeast - or in this case her inner heartbeast. See ArM5 Core p.92: "Hermetic magic is unable to tell whether an animal is actually a Bjornaer, ...". So having a stone bear Bjornaer pass without her knowledge through a ward against stone creatures aligned with magic should not give her away.
Might 0 has several important effects compared to no Might. These include things like giving Magic Resistance 0 (which is much more powerful than no Magic Resistance), no Warping, and no Aging.
Just because something is Supernatural and aligned with a Realm does not make it Might 0.
Yes. But when reading ArM5 core rules, we can not distinguish these always.
"Ward against creatures of the [Form] from one [Supernatural] realm (Divine, Faerie,
Infernal, or Magic) whose Might is less than or equal to the level of
the spell." - is how it's worded.
Couple this with the quote on page 157, and what Troy said; it just doesn't work. Rego Vim targets Might in general. Form Specific Wards against Supernatural Creatures still affect Might, but only if it's of specific alignment. No Might = No Might Alignment, and so it doesn't work.
Regardless, the fact the Inner Heartbeasts specifically gain a Might Score only after their Final Twilight should be indication enough that before that point only Wards against the physical form (non general guidelines of their form) are needed if you wanna ward against them. After final twilight, Might based wards will work just fine.
Irrelevant. We are talking about Elemental Heartbeasts, hence we are not using core rules only.
In many places it is something like this, but not for ReTe (ArM5 p.155). One could errata it in there - but so far it wasn't after 18 years, and the last time that page got errataed was only August 2021.
Come to think of it, you might errata it in at home and get a more unified Core book: so it cannot really do harm.
Let us consider this done.
Then we need only mobile magical stone bears without any Magic Might to argue, that the stone bear not being barred by even a top-power ward does not give away the Bjornaer in inner heartbeast form. Note, that by HoH:MC p.32 Hidden Shape still applies to the stone bear - so it should not be trivial to identify her as a Bjornaer.
To me it appears still far more logical, that the elemental inner heartbeast of a Bjornaer is treated as a magic-aligned supernatural creature with Might 0 wrt wards. Such creatures just tend to have Might scores!
HoH:MC p.24 about the final Magic Might of Great Beasts in inner heartbeast shape does not cause a contradiction here. To the contrary, Bjornaer without inner heartbeast at Final Twilight become mundane beasts, while those with inner heartbeasts become Great Beasts with considerable Might.
This rather provides further reason to give Might 0 in typical situations to inner heartbeasts of Bjornaer.
That is not at all logical! You don't get Might out of nowhere, and there is no reason why wards would suddenly treat someone as if they had Might when they don't have it.
Some wards protect against creatures with Might, and those wards give no protection against other types of beings or things.
Other wards protect against more mundane things.
The Warding ability that ward spells are based on, can only protect against either natural creatures or Supernatural creatures with Might. Anything in between they work poorly against. Hermetic wards are more flexible, but it would not be strange if a given ward only protected against some things.