Ward and Enchanted Items: Is my math right or nuts?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

Ok...

Creating a charged item: Ink to make circular wards that will bar people.

Base 15 for warding humans, +1 Touch, +2 Ring, +0 Circle. level 30.
Expiry 1 year, increases excess lab total by a multiple of 10.

Penetration 30, +15 to effect level.

Environmental Trigger: +3 to spell level. Current thought is "if someone not wearing a mark defined by the wizard in the lab during enchantment", though the idea of "magic password" was bandied about. I'm unsure if those can work, given that casting the spell is what the trigger relates to, and the spell casting also involves the circle being traced. This seems to butt into Watching Ward territory and does not do what the player thinks it does. Am I wrong or right?

Anyhow, total effect level of 48.

Wizard's lab total:
16 Rego, 10 Form, 3 intelligence, 7 magic theory, 7 aura, 10 from a Focus in Magical Wards, 2 from Lab, and 2 from Familiar, plus 6 for knowing Ward against the Curious Scullion and +5 for shape/form (amber+ink, which I gave a total of 5 for).

So, lab total 68.

His excess lab total is 20. That would normally mean 4 charges of ink.
The expiry multiplies this by 10, so 40 charges of magic ink that creates year long Wards against Human Beings, with a penetration of 30.

So, mathwise, this seems right? I've never dealt with Expiry before.

As for the environmental trigger, in my conception of casting circular wards, the spell is cast as you trace it. An environmental trigger would necessitate the circle being retraced every time, and the spell does not do that. It activates upon completion. Is my mental space not processing this correctly?

The player has a wizard with a focus in wards, but who also wants to be a hoplite. I think he wants to make his wards more useful in combat, but I think he's approaching his talents from a FPS mentality, as opposed to a tool that requires strategy and preparation.

Also, finally: Arcane Connections and Circular Wards... is how they interact mentioned anywhere? The Columbae section of Societates makes it seem that Hermetic Magic can't use AC with Circular Wards. I may be misreading, as the book is not currently open on my lap...

Vrylakos

2

That sounds really, really wrong. First, Effect Expiry is for the device, not for the effect. So, the ink would fail to function after a year, regardless of whether it's been used or not. Second, charged items already have a set expiration: one use per charge and then it's gone. I don't think you can set a new expiration.

Chris

3

You are likely really, really right :wink:

I was using Metacreator to crunch the numbers, and only tangentially looking at the book, but your reading of the issue makes much more sense.

So, I think the device expiring as opposed to any magic made by the device is the right read of the rules. But, when you read Effect Expiry in the rules you get:

"It is possible to instill an effect that will only work for a limited period. This period is counted from the first use of the effect, not from its creation. A single item may mix temporary and permanent effects. Limiting an effect in this way multiplies the amount by which the magus' lab total exceeds the modified effect, allowing him to instill effects more quickly. It does not allow him to instill effects he otherwise could not otherwise manage."

SO, I think the exipiry only applies towards speeding up the enchantment process, and has no utility in charged item creation. In fact, I don't think it can be used in a lesser enchantment either.

4

I think that environment trigger is "attached to the item" (although to a specific effect), and is intended to automatically cast the spell again in some situation (such as sunrise/sunset, etc) - it doesn't usually change the spells effect,

To do what you want you would have to alter the spell effect directly in some way - how does Aegis of the Hearth do it, as it is in many ways a similar effect that you want - holders of a "token" or participants in the ritual are not affected by the spell?

It could easily be argued with charged items (and indeed, lesser enchanted items) that all you do is install an effect,

Given how it is written though, for charged items you would benefit by creating extra charges (and not by being able to create bigger effects) as only the excess (lab total - effect level) gets multiplied up (at least according to your excerpt). This will enhance your ability to make lesser enchanted items a bit though (as you need to double the effect total for lesser enchantments),

That said, it does seem to be gaming the system a little to create charged items (that are often seen as disposable anyway) with a "shelf life" as well - so run it past your group,

5

Effect Expiry and Charged Devices need to be treated with care. First off, the modifier should work the same whether you make 1 item with X charges or X items with 1 charge each. Effect Expiry does not kick in until you use the device for the first time, after this the clock is ticking.

So the OP's ink is fine and dandy until used for the first time, from that time it has a limited shelf life. But how the dickens does the devices know one of their brethren has been used? What if you make 12 vials of this ink and sell half? The buyer hoards his, but you start using it right away, and then his ink runs dry...

IMHO the easiest fix would to be to disallow Effect Expiry for charged devices (or altrnatively only allow if for 1 device with X charges).

6

Sounds like a sympathetic connection to me...

It does sound like an annoying bookkeeping exercise though, so it may be best to avoid it altogether,

7

IMO, it wouldn't.

Changing things up:

You can make a hoard of arrows that have one charge each. Using one would not affect any of the others. Each item is a duplicate of the other, not connected to the others like the multiple charges of a single wand.

Environmental Trigger: +3 to spell level. Current thought is "if someone not wearing a mark defined by the wizard in the lab during enchantment", though the idea of "magic password" was bandied about. I'm unsure if those can work, given that casting the spell is what the trigger relates to, and the spell casting also involves the circle being traced. This seems to butt into Watching Ward territory and does not do what the player thinks it does. Am I wrong or right?

Its not an environmental trigger, exactly...it's a environmental trigger with a linked trigger. "The effect is triggered by the results of another effect in the same item." So, unless you get a Verditius to Reforge the Ink, you can't do this, because its a lesser item...

8

charged items with an expiry date and a high penetration are scary.
I restricted them in my recent campaign.

9

The problem with charged items and effect expiry is that effect expiry is supposed to be a bonus for limiting an unlimited enchantment. Charged items are already limited that way. Let's take the case of making charged items with a 70-year effect expiry. It is highly likely you will use up all the charges by the end of the 70 years anyway. So essentially by doing this I'm just doubling the number of charges I get for free. Putting what is generally a lesser expiry on the effect shouldn't give you a bonus.

We need to remember that charged items already get two huge expiry bonuses as written. First, they cost no vis. Second, you effectively get a bonus to your lab total equal to 2x[(excess lab total)/5, rounded up w/a minimum of 1]x[effect level]-[effect level]. If, for example, you're making a level 30 effect with a 42 lab total, you get 3 of the item. Normally it requires a lab total of 180 to get 3 level 30 effects in a season, so the excess of 12 has been multiplied by 12.5.

Would you allow someone to make an invested effect with a 70-year expiry, then add a 7-year expiry, and then add a 1-year expiry and keep getting multipliers? Or would you just say the greatest expiry applies?

Chris

10

I don't follow. How does effect expiry enhance your ability to make lesser enchanted items? If you can't invest the effect, you can't do with with expiry, and you can't invest the effect if you can't do it in one season already with a lesser enchanted device. David has confirmed this in the past.

It can make it more likely you can build several of the same TeFo enchanted devices in a single season, though. So it can speed you up, but it can't really enhance your ability.

Chris

11

Aha - looking at the wording you could well be correct,

I was thinking that the ruling was that the item must be enchanted in one season, so a lab total 30, effect level 20 item with a duration of 70 years (excess of 10x2 = 20) could be done in one year,

It's worth considering that you could install that effect in a full enchanted item, so strictly you are not "installing an effect you could not otherwise manage", but my feeling is that that is taking liberties somewhat,

12

I would say you cannot manage installing the effect in a lesser enchanted device. You can manage it in a greater one, but that's not what you're doing. So it's fine to use effect expiry with the greater one, but not with the lesser one.

It's kind of like saying since I can punch my way through a flimsy door (I can manage punching through a door.) I am capable of punching my way through a steel door (Still just punching through a door, which I can do.).

Chris