Wards and attacking across them

Some of the first opponents we faced were demons with might scores of 10-20. At the time we knew no wards, and fought them with Demons eternal oblivion (lvl 10). Since my magus is a vim spesialist this worked fine. Had he known a lvl 20 ward and tried to hold them of with that, then he would not have been able to penetrate their MR with it.
In other words - if you need to penetrate with wards, it is easier to use magic offensivly rather than defensivly...

Agreed, where there is a single threat you probably have a better chance in using offence (assuming you are able to fend of any attacks for the one or two rounds it might take to finish him off).

Where there are multiple threats, even at low level, a ward is probably the best tactic.

I beg to differ.

Demons are subtle. Most of the time, unseen untill too late.

Let us establish the use of DEO vs WAD

DEO Level 10 (Base effect)

  • Reduce 10 of might from one infernal creature if MR is penetrated

WAD Level 10 (Base effect)

  • Keep out ALL (not just one) infernal creatures of Might 10 or less (If MR is penetrated) seen or unseen.
  • Protects from Infernal powers (If MR is penetrated) known or unknown.
  • Protects a group of people and or objects (Circle effect)
  • Indefinite Duration (Untill ring is broken)

I agree. Once the ward is casted, there is no reason for the warder to keep the arcane connection. So miserabilis at the end of the day saved his party & can return to his safe warded alliance. Quite rewarding I think.


I think you should go look at the example creatures in the 5th ed book with regard to their abilities. Might 10 creatures do not have abilities that compare to magi.

so is our storyguide going to balance the game based on warding or based on everything else?

That's not a smokescreen that's looking at the rules and their consiquences with an unbiased eye.

A difference you missed is that a DEO level 10 is useful against every demon that exisits and a WAD is useful against only the very weakest.

With penetration required for wards, it is always precisly as easy to destroy a creature utterly with a single spell as to hold them at bay with a ring/circle ward. It is always significantly easier to destroy a creature with two spells than to ward against it.

You seem to be concentrating on subtle demons, in adition to these subtle creatures there are un-subtile creatures of all realms. You need to find rules that work for them as well.

Do you really want to play in games where it is easier to destroy creatures than ward against them?

Not that I want to digress, but is Erik the first to reach the esteemed status of "Master"?

Bows, "Were not worthy... were not worthy." :wink:


You wish to tell us that most of the time they don't leave a warder the time to draw his circle?

Miserabilis does not like to hear that. :cry:

Especially since his PeVi competitor now has bagged all the arcane connections, as she needs them to protect Miserabilis when he attempts to draw his wards.

Kind regards,


Worth noting that several magi on our covenant has developed the habit of casting DEO on strangers - just to make sure...

And it is also the most mastered spell in our covenant - with multicasting and fastcasting among the most popular abilities...

The LE has spoken on BerkList...

...and I do not agree.
E.G.: A demon wants to use one of his powers across a ward (against demons of course). Does the ward have to penetrate the MR of the demon? Is there now a difference between ranged attacks and personally entering a warded area? This ruling causes more problems and not less! This problem exists right now for the ward against mundanes, but I used this only for "thou shall not enter" spells.

Since a house rule for Aegis is already necessary, I will house rule all wards (first time for a subject covered by ArM5 rules).


Adumbatus, post your FULL reply to the berserklist! I found that one to be highly enlightening :smiley: The difference against creatures and might was an interesting concept.



No, the SG bases his stories and their threats on the capabilities of the player magi. Simple as that. The specific subject at the moment is warding and by extension how effective that is given two interpretations of the rules.

We could extend your argument to include the more powerful entities described in the core book or the other source books. Should then a magus be able to cope with a creature of might 50? Of course he should... eventually.

What I don't think I'm communicating very well is the "minion principle". Villains generally stack into a triangle. There are fewer powerful entities and many less-powerful entities. Each group poses its own threat; the single "overlord" has a high might and powers to match. The lesser beings make up in numbers what they lack in might.

So, the might 10 hell hounds are generic monsters sent by the villain. In a pack, they can take the magus apart and kill the child (going back to my example). But they have been given a low might not only because of their station but because the SG knows that the magus in question can deal with them. That's the most important rule; provide a challenge, not a bloodbath.

Regardless of the house rule applied with respect of wards, I'd be untirely unfair if I sent threats too great for the magus to deal with. If the official rule is that wards don't need to penetrate, then quite simply, the threat increases in line with that and the hell hounds gain another 10 might.

Thinking out loud...

The Aegis of the Hearth is based upon Bonisagus' Parma Magica, thus it is a form of general magic resistance. As with all other magic resistance, it must be penetrated - it does not penetrate itself.

Wards - these may work either way... I will probably continue using them as passive resistance spells, as I'm likely to use similar effects for hedge wizards as their magical defences...

I read David Chart's statement as an explicit invitation to do so. Thanks for posting it.

My first take on a desirable houserule would be:
(1) Keep Aegis as is, and do not require it to penetrate Magic Resistance to affect somebody interacting with it.
(2) Use the ReCo15 Guideline to ward against other human beings as the guideline for all other Wards, and require them to penetrate Magic Resistance in the same way as well.

Kind regards,


Miserabelis will be so happy.

Since we are in the HR domain, I,ve always been frustrated about the fact that form based wards were not more potent thant the general Vim versions.

I would hence HR that a form based ward, wards against all realms.

ReHe ward would ward against Magical,infernal, fairy & divine creatures alligned with herbam.

Another option would be to remove wards from the spont/formulaic/ritual world & restrict it to Magical Objects, Aegis & Parma.


Some people were already complaining that wards would be too powerful if they didn't have to penetrate. If you use that approach, they still remain relatively easy (though, granted, 3 magnitures are significant). By fixing their level that way, however, you make them significantly easier to learn. You would also only have to learn a single ReVi ward for each realm.

Or you could put it in a device and benefit of the built-in x2 penetration multiplier.

In my opinion there are two kind of wards:

a) Wards against creatures (e.g. mundanes) with(!) penetration and the ranged attack problem.

b) Wards against Might(!), which prevent the Might to enter the warded area (and in consequence the body tied to that might), as well as Powers powered by the Might.
The Might has to penetrate the Ward! (Like a spell or power has to penetrate parma.) Not the other way round.

Demons Eternal Oblivion and similar spells attack and weaken the connection between the creature and its might. Or reduce the might points, whichever interpretation you prefer. In both cases the MR of the creature has to be penetrated.


I view it more as your ward is a bubble that the creature needs to penetrate. So a low level magus can cast a low level ward (say 10) a creature with a higher might (over 10) can easily break that ward.

You're not casting anything on the creature so you dont have to penetrate, it needs to penetrate the ward you cast around you

And back to the original post...no reason the arrow cant penetrate

Quite. It came into mind that why would there be wards against metals and wood if one could simply ward mundane arrows by warding mundane people. This means, by my reconing, that the warded against cannot pass the ward but can affect it indirectly by, say, shooting an arrow or throwing a stone. That way they only affect the arrow or stone directly and as such those things would not be warded.

Just my 2 mythic pence.


Well I'll start by stateing the rules on page 114 AM5 under magic wards, "Warded things cannot act across the circle, no matter which side they are on, nor can they damage the circle directly or indirectly." This means that shooting an arrow across a ward is acting across a ward.

Now if you look at mythic occultism the idea behind a ward was to protect the person within or keep something in it. Often when doing a summoning you would construct 2 wards, one to keep the summoned in and one to protect yourself. Kind of a fail safe if you think about it. To take a more common idea of a ward that you all are more familur with, a vampire and a crusifix. When weilding a cusifix the vampire cannot bring itself to harm the bearer, however it could ask a third party to assult you. The same with a demon ward or a skeliton ward.

Now lets talk exploits of alowing indirect attacks across the ward. This is the resone I decided to go with the more mythic idea of the ward in my game. Demons are very coniving ancient cretures that can and will prepare for contigencies like wards if they could. You draw a ward vs. demons knowing you will incounter a demon later that day due to story resones. The demon knows there is a posiblity of a ward against it and brings a bow and a grapaling hook. Demon shows up, throws the hook across the ward, drags it breaking the circle, kills magus. Mind you this would work with any ward in this case. So as soon as your enemys realize you use wards why don't they all just start carrieing these things? They are living thinking beings in the game that are interested in self preservation. Thats way demons work through mortal agents.

I apologize for my horible spelling.

One would hope that if you were foolish enought to summon demons you would prepare for said contigencies... ie: wards within wards.

You'd have yer ward vs demons but you'd also have several others fer what it may summon: vs herbam, terram, aquam, mundanes, ect...