wards and penetration, how to make it work?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

Looking at the example creatures in the rulebook we have creatures of might 10, might 20 and might 50 for every realm. Using these as benchmarks, I ask myself,”What should a magus be able to ward against?”

If penetration is required, then it takes a casting total of 20 to ward against the ghostly warder, the faerie butler, and Michael the minor demon of wrath. A casting total of 40 to ward against the faerie wolves and a casting total of 100 to ward against the Seiferiel the angel of the order, Bartholomew the demon, Lord Marsyne the Faeire, and Stallatus the Dragon.

If penetration is not required casting totals of 0, 10, and 40 are needed to cast a ring/circle ward of the appropriate level (missing the level of the spell by 10 and taking a fatigue 0.

For my thinking, I will assume that a magus will have a stamina + penetration + talisman attunement + applicable virtue + etcetera bonus of 4 for a young magus and 7 for a middle aged or older magus.

Thinking exclusively about ring/circle wards, and using a die roll of 5 an example character would need to have technique + form scores of 11, 28, and 88 to ward against the creatures if the magus needs to have penetration for his ward and 0, 1, and 28 if the magus doesn’t need penetration.

I think that not requiring wards to penetrate provides effects that more closely resemble what I want to see in a game. You might be tempted to say that the wards for the weaker two sets of creatures are too easy in this case. I would counter that to learn a formulaic spell requires a season and any magus who spends a season studying faerie wards should be able to ward against a might 10 creature and a might 20 creature will take more arts to learn than cast. Even a +4 int, Magic theory 6 bonisagus will need to have a copy of the spell and 3 or 4 ranks in both technique and form (depending upon aura) and a beginning magus with +2 int, +3 aura and Magic theory 5 needs five in both technique and form to learn the spell from lab notes far more if they wish to invent it.

If you require wards to penetrate magic theory it will take many years for any magus to ward against the rulebook wolves and warding against the core book big hitters is almost impossible. I do not like this option nearly as much.

However, I don’t just need to worry about ring/circle wards I need to worry about range personal wards.

Also, I need to develop an in-game justification for wards to work without penetrating.

I’ve got some ideas on both points that I intend on hashing out with a pencil and notebook with some example characters, but I’d like to hear other thoughts on how to make this work or why I will do more harm than good by making this switch.

2

Just a thought off the top of my head, that might help the general discussion going on here and elsewhere....

Everyone is saying that the magical ward HAS to penetrate the Might of the creature warded against....

WHY???

Look at it this way...

In R.W. when you try to pass through a wall, you smack your face...the wall doesn't jump out and punch a hole in you.

A ward is a magical wall. The creature trying to get through must break through (or penetrate) the ward...not the other way around.
Now you could say that other spells need to penetrate affect the creature. True, but a ward isn't affecting the creature....its affecting the Might of the creature (Think of the Might of the creature as a wall/bubble/ball around the creature). What you have then is the might of the creature hitting the magical wall...not the creature hitting the wall. You are not actually hurting (needing to penetrate) the creature. Since this is less directed, it makes the spells (wards) more powerful than they seem to be...

My $.02

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3

My thinking too, but I didn't go through all the math. So thanks :slight_smile:

I'll have to thing about personal wards; personally, I don't really like them. They don't feel as nice as those ring and circle thingies.

4

Fine by me. We had the same conclusion when we converted our game from 4th to fifth Ed. Then we realised the the problem was not penetration but the Actual might of the creatures.

Think about it. Penetration is one of the best addition of the 5th ed but it does reduce the power of a hermetic mage to affect creatures with might. the Logical solution is not to modify the new great rules but to simply reduce the might of the creatures.

I say It would take a group of very old magus to ward against a dragon. It has been said that only foolish mages will engage a Dragon.

In addition, wards are still too powerfull as is. thinking about the fact that you can use vis, that it can last indefinetly & that you can use wizard communion to boost your penetration, a group of novice mages can ramp up a penetration total of 50+ easilly for a ward level 50 taught to them by their master.

5 mages in wizard communion will drop the effective level to 10

Stm(2)+ Pen (3) + Mastery(2) + Re(10) + Vi (10) + 15 vis - level (10) = 47+die

Just the fact that it can be done (& this is the highest level of warding you can have without it being a ritual) by 5 novice mages tells me it is meaby a bit too powerfull or meaby just okay since it actually required team play & some ressources. this is something I like to see in my game.

5

William,

if 5 young magi know Wizard's Communion each at level 20, and one of them has - with some SG help - learned a level 50 spell, they can do impressive things - at a very steep price: 5 extra botch dice for everybody, if the caster botches.
Using 15 vis in addition means another 15 extra botch dice for everybody: on a botch everybody does not only very likely enter twilight, but also runs the very real risk of a deadly triple botch.
So young magi will soon learn to refrain from this way of problem solving.

As an argument about the power of wards such an extreme example is not very helpful.

Kind regards,

Berengar

6

While true, I for one has not considered the effect of Wizard's Communion and other penetration-boosting methods on the issue.
From the flavor standpoint, the addition of arcane connections, names and birth dates, and elaborate ceremonies to make wards more potent is certainly desirable. That alone hints that basing the effect on Penetration may not be such a bad idea after all. Given WC, perhaps the required high rolls might not be that bad (especially with casting from text).
This still runs into the problem of the magi having to be really specialists to ward against generic spirits; a ward would only be truly effective against weak spirits or specific spirits, it would seem.
I'm not entirely sure that's such a bad thing.

7

What kind of rules are you thinking of?

With ArM4 'casting from text' you would have doubled the botch dice of William's example to a whopping 42+: a nearly assured crippling catastrophe or death for every WC-participant once a zero shows up.

'Casting from text' is currently not possible in ArM5. AFAIK we will get it back with 'Covenants', but I can only speculate about its ArM5 ramifications.

Kind regards,

Berengar

8

Don`t use the botch dice excuse. Just by having a mastery of 2 in wizard communion you eliminate 10 extra botch dice. Then, I'm sure that the caracter that worked a lot to get his level 50 spell, also mastered his super spell a bit, let us say he has a mastery of 3. Let us says he also has a familiar with a cord of 2 to reduce botches.

We just lowered the botch dices from 20 to merely 5 & with a litle troupe effort, it could be brought down to zero.

As for getting the level 50 spell & having someone teach it to you is a nice quest by itself or a virtue from a starting caracter or a troupe agreement from start.

We need to remember that wards can be prepared. Casted Years before used to protect artifacts or other sensitive stuff. You can even ask a service from an older mage to come & cast the ward with you in wizard communion or not...

9

How's that? Most of the extra 20 botch dice your magi get - namely 15 - is from your using 15 pawns of vis to boost a Ward's casting total. The other 5 is because five magi join to cast the Ward. Nothing of this is affected by mastery of Wizards' Communion.
(Note that I granted you the successful casting of Wizards' Communion - the really risky business is casting the Ward using Wizards' Communion.)

The caster would with these considerable investments eliminate all together only 5 dice in his botch roll: not very much if the number of dice was beyond twenty before.

Having a character with a level 50 spell in a low level campaign would be an SG-fiat plain and simple: there just is no Virtue in the books today to compel an SG to such generosity, not even if the covenant has some access to the Great Library of Durenmar.

Kind regards,

Berengar

10

I must admit that the rules are not clear on the matter in the Wizard communion description but the way I read it, all the magi participate to the casting of the spell thru the wizard communion & the vis can be distributed within the communion to fuel the spell that is beeing casted. Hence, if the communion is mastered (Read reduce botch dice), it will reduce the strain that is beeing placed thru the communion.

This is how I came to my conclusion of only 5 botch dice remaining.

My point exactly. But if it can be done for a level 50, it is just easier for lower levels.

11

What shall I say about that? I'll call it highly original, and be done with it.

Kind regards,

Berengar

12

I'm thinking that casting from text will allow for basically the same things it allowed in ArM4. I would be suprised if you couldn't whip up a level several magnitudes higher than you could normally cast by casting it from text, or if you couldn't usefully combine it with WC.

Yair

13

So where are we now?

We have seen that the ways to boost Wards, for level and - if required in a campaign - penetration are the same as for other spells, and that certain extreme attempts of such boosting carry the same tough penalties as they would carry for other spells, and would not let magi grow old if used more often than two or three times.

We know furthermore that magic resistance in ArM5 is designated by the author as houserule territory (see redcap.org/FAQ/FAQ2.html#parma), and requires storyguide interpretation and augmentation to become consistent.

A newly created magus character a year or two out of apprenticeship and interested in Wards could have a standard Ward spell - R:Touch, D: Ring, T:Circle - at level 20 to 30 (perhaps at 35 if substantial investments were made at creation time).
If we follow the 'magical bridge' example of ArM5 p.86 to the letter and do not require penetration for a Ward to block entry or exit, creatures of might 20 to 30 (or 35 for Wards cast by real specialists) would be blocked.

Several reasonably designed might 20 creatures, or perhaps one of might 35, AFAICS make 'fair' main opponents in a story for an intelligent troupe a year or two out of apprenticeship.
Such a troupe would have a few low level high penetration attack spells like ReCo 5 'Spasms of the Uncontrolled Hand' or PeVi 5 'Demon's Eternal Oblivion' mastered for Multicasting, hence could affect creatures of such might even if unprepared.
Such a troupe should have means (mostly spells, a few items, but also familiars) to supplement the still weak Parmae of their magi.
Such a troupe should also have the sense and means to retreat from confrontations with such beings on less than favorable grounds.
Finally such a troupe - given one or two seasons and sufficient information - is able to prepare one-shot items which can quite safely take out such creatures, or to find arcane connections to boost penetration against them.

So, in a campaign with young magi, requiring penetration would indeed make Wards rather useless as a defense during unexpected encounters with main opponents, and as a means to prepare an escape. AFAICS this is the main purpose of Wards, however.

Kind regards,

Berengar

14

My $.02

Our group doesn't have any "Combat" specialist. We have a Diedne (in hiding), a Merinita, a Bonisagus, a Bjorner, and a Verditius. The Boni and the Verd are thirteen years out of Gauntlet, the others are seven. A week ago we were attacked by a couple of creatures with a Might of 15 (our guess). We had all we could do to handle it. If it wasn't for our grogs and companions, we were dead.
Please explain how you folks figure the following:

  1. How does a new mage cast this level 50 spell?
    The Verditius in our group has Massive bonus' to Ritual spells, but can barely cast a level 40 Ritual (his two highest scores are the Form and Tech used for it)
  2. How are you figuring penetration?
    The Diedne in our group, casting his lower level (high casting total) formulaic spells, could barely touch these creatures....(with a good penetration score to boot)
  3. How do you figure all these magi can cast "Communion"? This would require all the members to have some Vim scores...(NEW Magi!).

I apologize for saying this, but I don't know what game you guys are playing. New magi can barely handle a level 35 spell in AM5. Such a Magi is so specialized that he can't do anything else. You also specify that a 'couple' of years out of gauntlet would give them the needed abilities...The Verd and Bonisagus in our group are thirteen years out of Gauntlet, and can't do what you are talking about! As for 'Whipping up a few items" to do these things, Who has the time? From what I have seen of AM, most beginnning Magi are so busy trying to raise their scores (to get that casting total you are talking about), they don't have the time to learn Communion, Wards of ridiculously high level, or create magic items 'just in case'. There would have to be an obvious threat to do so....

Perhaps I am just confused as to what you guys are discussing, but it seems you are maximizing the examples to an extreme to make a point.
Please help here...

15

I would see it on a more positive light as follow.

So where are we now?

We have seen that the ways to boost Wards, for level and - if required in a campaign - without penetration - are the same as for other spells, and that attempts of boosting thru vis carry the same tough penalties as they would carry for other spells, and would not let magi grow old if used too often.

We know furthermore that magic resistance in ArM5 requires the troupes concensus to set the basis for the game (see redcap.org/FAQ/FAQ2.html#parma), and requires storyguide interpretation and vigilency to allow the game to be fun on the long term.

A newly created magus character a year or two out of apprenticeship and interested in Wards could have a standard Ward spell - R:Touch, D: Ring, T:Circle - at level 20 to 30 (Perhaps at 35-40 with a focus in wards).
If we follow the Ward Rules of ArM5 to the letter and do require penetration for a Ward to have any effect on a creatures of might 20 to 30 (or 35-40 for Wards cast by real specialists) could be affected only with carefull preparation.

Several reasonably designed might 20 creatures, or perhaps one of might 35, AFAICS make 'fair' main opponents in a story for an intelligent troupe a year or two out of apprenticeship.
Such a troupe would have a few low level high penetration attack spells like ReCo 5 'Spasms of the Uncontrolled Hand' or PeVi 5 'Demon's Eternal Oblivion' mastered for Penetration, hence could affect creatures of such might even if unprepared.

Such a troupe should have means (mostly Grogs, spells, a few items and a familiar might help) to supplement the still weak Parmae of their magi.
Such a troupe should also have the sense and means to retreat from confrontations with such beings on less than favorable grounds.
Finally such a troupe - given one or two seasons and sufficient information - to find arcane connections to boost penetration against them and or Allies from the fey, Dominion, magical or even infernal realms.

So, in a campaign with young magi, requiring penetration would indeed make Wards interesting & allow a lot of interactions with potential allies who can provide defense during unexpected encounters to provide the needed time to cast the wards properly and means to escape.

Always for the fun of the game,

William

16

A Ward of R:Personal, D:Sun, T:Individual is just one magnitude more effective than the standard R:Touch, D:Ring, T:Circle Ward.
It basically functions as a Parma specialized against effects worked by some or all denizens of a given realm, if it doesn't need to penetrate these denizens' Magic Resistance.
To make a balance problem out of this, one also would have to make one out of the general Magic Resistance provided by familiars to their masters.

Note also, that Wards of R:Touch, D:Sun, T:Individual would warp their recipients if either level 30+ or continuously applied.

The in-game justification Erik Tyrrell asks for is, that Wards are not in any way damaging the beings warded against, but just blocking their way and the way of their powers, just as a magically created wall of rock would, or a Parma Magica. The former does not need to penetrate Magic Resistance to remain standing when a magus with Parma up tries to walk through them, as the 'magical bridge' example on ArM5 p.86 shows. The latter has not even a penetration characteristic.

Kind regards,

Berengar

17

William,

you lost me here. This phrase appears to be without grammar, logic and meaning.

Kind regards,

Berengar

18

[quote="Urien"

  1. How does a new mage cast this level 50 spell?
    The Verditius in our group has Massive bonus' to Ritual spells, but can barely cast a level 40 Ritual (his two highest scores are the Form and Tech used for it)
  2. How are you figuring penetration?
    The Diedne in our group, casting his lower level (high casting total) formulaic spells, could barely touch these creatures....(with a good penetration score to boot)
  3. How do you figure all these magi can cast "Communion"? This would require all the members to have some Vim scores...(NEW Magi!).

[quote]

I understand your doubt. The level 50 example is an extreme example. The only way to use such a spell (if penetration is required) would be thru a Wizard communion which is not the best solution in combat :stuck_out_tongue:

There are many ways to take care of your beast.

1- Mundane sword & means ( Super companions & Grogs)
2- Other supernatural ally or ennemy of your ennemy. You can request/buy their help
3- Get an arcane connection & be done with it from your cosy convenant.
4- make charged items with a lot of easy penetration **

**NB. We banned modified effects in charged Items as a house rule which means that all charged items have 0 penetration in our games. No easy way out in the lab for us :stuck_out_tongue:

There are probably many other ways to deal with your nemesis that I haven`t marked down here but it should give you some ideas.

About learning Wizard communion, I think that all mages can learn a level 10-20 spell in any Fo/Te. Casting it is even more easy if the aura permits :stuck_out_tongue:

William

19

Did your magi have no means of quick escape, like ReCo 30 Seven-League Stride, ReAu 30 Wings of the Soaring Wind or such?

He can't, pure and simple.

If their might was 15, a magus 7 years after gauntlet should have come through with his favorite formulaic attack spells of levels 5 to 10 or even 15. He needs only casting totals of 20 to 30 for that.
Were your characters in an adverse Aura? Or did the Diedne try to cast spontaneous spells?

This is indeed unlikely for new magi. In my experience sooner or later all magi learn it to be of use when a powerful Aegis is acquired by the covenant, though.

Exactly: if the problem is serious enough, the magi will allocate the time. If not, they will leave such creatures well enough alone, won't they?

Kind regards,

Berengar

20

Thanks... english is my 3rd language. I sometimes need to re-re-read myself :stuck_out_tongue:

I edited the text.