I hadn't realised that Learn (Ability) from Mistakes could be so divisive. Sorry.
Since this modified version can theoretically affect so many Abilities, would this be a Major Virtue?
Jusr as a Flaw that doesn't impede a player can't be considered a Flaw, I would rule that a single 0.5xp must round up for the Virtue to be a Virtue.
Well, there are two additional backdraws, one for that "hr-enhanced" version and other for the original virtue:
Anyway!, I like to push it to a Major Virtue. It gives space for another minor virtue: Learn Ability Type from Mistakes: as LfM, but applies to all abilities inside a type.
That's why I tried to factor in a reduction for when Confidence Points might well be used to make missing by 1 turn into success by 2. It's hard to guess at that, but I based it on Confidence Point accumulation, as you cannot keep spending points faster than accumulating them, and you may well spend Confidence Points on other things so they cannot be 100% on this particular Ability.
So, to the OP's point, to recap:
You don't roll:
Ceremony
Form Resistance
Parma Magica
Penetration
Some are almost never rolled:
Teaching
Magical Meditation
Some are seldom rolled:
Animal Handling (depending on some Supernatural powers and the focus of your character, maybe)
Magic Theory (for Insight. It might be rolled in some adventures, as well)
Living Language (and Dead Languages, though some research or poem-crafting characters might do)
Ha, well, it is a very bad virtue, but at least this discussion has produced both mathematical models and some suggestions for its improvement!
A similar previous discussion is here: Puissant vs Learn from Mistakes
To review the rest of the present discussion:
•it is much worse than both Affinity and Puissant
•can only shine if you miss by 1 or botch at least once with the same ability, which implies:
an obvious handwave. How are you or your companions surviving consistent failure or catastrophic failure?
you have to roll a lot (a lot!) to consistently have good odds to earn the 5 xp. You also need a skill that has many many different difficulty levels, and ways to manipulate your total too, as your skill may rise to the point you can regularly only miss if you botch. And you may need a group that role-plays a lot of adventures, with multiple sessions, rather than some more abstracted, long-term Lab-ensconced hermit advancement.
you have to survive your fellow Players/Magi/grogs/Companions tolerating you interjecting your character who obviously and demonstrably has failed multiple times previously in the same sort of situations. "No, I'll scout ahead!" "No, I'll bargain with this guy, I am really good at this." " I'll sneak into the guard tower, I am a natural at this, I swear, you guys." "A'ight, I am gonna charm the breeches off of the duchess, just give me a couple of hours."
They might just take you behind the outhouse and quietly murder you. Specially if you missed rolls by 1 and refused to use Confidence.
•What NPC can take this? xps are already an abstraction, but this virtue depends on participating in stories, and specifically sessions. Do you give this NPC an extra 5 xp in that skill every 2 years, and a very bad rep for failure?
Best skills for making certain this virtue earns you the xp each session I believe are:
•Concentration, bar none! (in the link above, I suggested a character concept with Flawless Magic, Magic Addiction, etc. Essentially, each spell is multicast with a stress die (Flawless magic) in situations which trigger Concentration rolls; magic cast triggers Magic Addiction rolls each time. This magus also has MuVi spells to modify his spells, and you cast these as well, which trigger both MuVi Concentration rolls, as well as the other Concentration rolls. Concentration checks can be increasingly more difficult (and in combat start out at 15!), so you are good there. With Careful with (Concentration), you can avoid botches, and just hunt for "by-1" failures. With both having multiple copies of redundant spells, both for combat and investigation, this character can justifiably, and quietly, fail a Concentration roll here or there without any problem for the Story itself, while rolling dozens of times in 1 or 2 rounds (get an app to have this all ready to roll and not slow things down!)
•Finesse this one is more iffy, as using multiple Rego Craft rolls to trigger the "by-1" failures may not be deemed central or useful to the story by the rest of the Troupe. if they are ok with it, it will be amazing, as Finesse has plenty of difficulties to choose from, many failures/botches will not be life-threatening, etc. You can also use Finesse in combat with Multicast to hunt for those "by-1" failures. Because you want to avoid botches in combat!
•Any Craft/Profession/ability used for Faerie Magic charms, for Spontaneous spells and the like. These do take some time to craft, and maybe represent Fatigue levels lost but can be justified to be used multiple times in an adventure.
•Supernatural ability "X" For charged items from Rusticani using their Craft Magic ability for Supernatural ability "X". If they can live with consistent failure! Best to specialize in a quick-to-craft item. Could conceivably use multiple times in a session.
Other good opportunities to abuse this Virtue may occur to others.
Anyway, good gaming, sodales!
Nice!!! That's like how you can get Faerie Sympathy to explode with Finesse and Cautious with Finesse. Not quite as fast due to having to work it into the story and it only triggering once per session, but quite a clever way to force it to repeatedly work into stories.
This is a good comprehensive list. I think it only really shines if you often have situations where failed rolls don't ruin your successes in a longer run adventure; Even then, 'shines' is a relative term, when Affinity or Puissant are just.. better.
Hi,
Once we are house-ruling this virtue, I would change it utterly.
Version 1:
Learn from Mistakes, Major General Virtue
You get 1xp for every botch die you roll. These xps must be spent on an Art or Ability the original roll was to be added to. This virtue is compatible with virtues and flaws that reduce the number of botch dice rolled, but not compatible any virtue or flaw that reduces the impact of a botch.
LfM with (Ability) Minor GV
Like Major, but for a single Ability.
LfM with (Art) Minor Hermetic Virtue
Like Major but for a single Art.
Comment: This version is compatible with PbP/PbEM, in which there are no sessions. It is a worthy alternative strategy to botch mitigation, compared to the obvious paths to power of spell mastery, cautious with X, cautious sorcerer, a high gold cord, and other, similar virtues.
Version 2:
Learn from Mistakes Minor General Virtue -
You get 1xp for every botch die you roll that botches, excluding any botch dice whose impact is mitigated or ignored through some means, such as Weird Magic. Such xps must be spent on an Art or Ability the original roll was to be added to.
Comment: Fewer xps than the previous version, this virtue offers a small consolation for the bad effects that always accompanies the xps. I don't think it is as interesting mechanically, but it feels satisfying because the mistake that is learned from is always obvious. A Major version of this might offer 3xps.
By comparison, we have a virtue that adds 2xp to Practice and 3xp to adventure. I don't have text at hand to see if there are any gotchas.
Anyway,
Ken
I have always considered that Learn (Ability) from Mistakes to be best for abilities you use often, but have little opportunity to be taught or studied, such as Penetration or Concentration. (EDIT: meant Finesse, not Penetration)
My view is that using the Puissant (Ability) virtue on these abilities suggests that think that you you are unlikely to put anything more than starting points into this ability. I personally feel this may not be the best use of a large proportion of my starting abilities. YMMV.
Hi,
Penetration is pretty much never rolled, so LfM does almost nothing for it.
It certainly is not the best use!
The best virtues for Abilities expected to never be increased during play are flat xp adders, like Gild Trained or Good Parens or Baccalaureate or various others.
Anyway,
Ken
Side question that came up: why is there an assumption there is no way to learn decent levels of Finesse? If you hand a grog some Rego crafting item, they will learn it through use. Better yet, if the covenant has an item and a grog to use it from the beginning they can be started with a decent score in it to teach or train. For fictional positioning around the teaching/training, you'd probably want two of the same item so the student has the same tool but seems a pretty modest investment for a method to learn decent levels of finesse.
I don't think I've ever read that assumption. I certainly haven't made that assumption myself, as the best Finesse-based NPC I made was not Gifted but used the items made by a magus.
It was directly said here:
I have also not encountered it before, hence why I asked why that was an assumption of the game world. Probably should have quoted that bit in my "side question" post.
Perhaps I have misremembered, but I thought there were no books on abilities like Finesse, Penetration and Concentration, so you can only improve these abilities through Practise, not Teaching or Studying.
Your puzzlement suggests I might be mixing this up with something else.
Books on some of those abilities are probably less common than books on the arts and definitely on more mundane academic abilities but far as I'm aware it's possible to write a book or teach any ability in the game.
Heartbeast can't be learned from books (HoH:MC pg 38), and there may be other obscure mystery virtues that are similar, but certainly the vast majority of abilities can be.
Right, I forgot Heartbeast. Though that's the only one I know of. obviously "can't be learned from books" is different than "books on this aren't available" (see the many discussions about books on Parma practically being outlawed because then someone not of the order could learn it).
Side note: IMS I thought I would save time by using the library from the Semita Erabunda download. Did not spot that it had a book on Parma Magica until too late (after I repeatedly told the players that PM was the most guarded secret in the Order).
So I had to backtrack, and say that when Magi are first taught PM, it is encrypted using custom terminology, so the book on PM references this custom terminology so that only Magi taught legitimately with the encryption key can use the book, to everyone else it is gobbledegook.
eg instructions like "When performing the 3rd movement, repeat the temperment of steeling in the pitch of Aquarius, followed quickly the red inflection from the fifth preparation, praise Bonisagus"