What do you think of this spell?

Just looking for some feedback :smiley:

PeViG Lancea Magica:
R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind

This spell targets the Parma Magica of another magus. It was developed during the Schism War, though it is now used to hunt down rogues. This Dispels magic of a Specific Type, the Parma Magica. If the spell Penetrates, and then a roll of a Stress Die + (level of the spell +10) equals or exceeds five-times the score of the target Parma Magica, then it is collapsed and must be recast in the normal fashion.
(Base effect, +2 Voice, +2 for a bonus of +10 to the effect level)

I think it's solid by the RAW, and very dangerous to introduce into a saga.

There are a number of spells (like any that hide The Gift) that the authors simply do not ever want to see allowed in canon. Why? Because it changes the foundation of the game.

If this spell exists, Parma is threatened. And Parma is the excuse for the Order to work. Think it out to it's logical extreme - any mage-mage conflict now erases Parma as the first move - and then it's back to the stone age.

That's my feedback; take it for what it's worth to ya. :wink:

Thanx. I have introduced it into several sagas without any problems. However, I want to introduce it to a new saga, a live game where I am a player. I don't want to disrupt their game, so I am thinking of withdrawing it. Just wanted to make sure it was in line with RAW, and get some feedback on how others might react to it.

Id you look at the hard numbers parma does not hold alrready. Lancea magica or no lancea magica. The penetration mastery makes sure this is the case. It is rare to see a parma above 8, even for extremely experienced magi. That is no proof against a specialist in an art that is not your own major Art.

The best thing about parma is that it takes out the bad effects from the Gift in social interaction. If it gave no MR at all, the effect in the current OoH would be pretty much the same nowadays

Cheers,

Xavi

I don't think this works according to RAW, because Parma Magica isn't a spell. At best, it is a supernatural ability.

Take a look at Winds of Mundane Silence. It also knocks down Parma, but it allso affects all magical effects in an area. Narrowing it down to a single specific effect gives me +10 to the effect level (as it is Individual instead of Group), and I only need to match the level instead of doubling it (as it affects a specific type of magic rather than all magic).

Salvete Sodales!

nkid wrote:

Well, I don't have the core book with me this very moment, so I might remember a bit from 4th edition, but I think this has not been significantly changed: 'Wind of mundane silence' as a non-specific PeVi spell endangers the Parma, it is just not very effective. To perform Specific contra magics you just have to have some knowledge of the magic involved, you do not need to be able to perform the style of magic (e.g. a sufficient area lore(highlands) skill is enough to counter gruagachan magic). Any hermetic magus knows enough about the Parma, so I don't see a problem on the side of the rules.

And as for game balance, even if the Parma just needs one blow to remove (for an accomplished hermetic mage, nobody else should have enough knowledge of it), this still gives you time to react to a surprise attack (ReCo away, counter attack at your opponent, cover behind a stone...) instead of being killed by the first blow. The Parma still works against many supernatural creatures and minor magic users and finally allows you to interact with other Parma users. So, it might not be the ultimate power, but it is still worth its XP.

Of course, a magus knowing the 'Lancea Magica' without being a renowned Quaesitor, Hoplite or other kind of hunter of evil mages might cause some suspicions regarding his motives.

Vale,
Alexios ex Miscellanea[/b]

Seems basically OK to me.

My only cause for concern is whether Parma counts as a "specific type of magic" or not. Given that Parma gives a magic resistance against effects of 10 different Forms originating from any of the realms (and innoculates the character against the social effects of the Gift) then I could see an arguement that it was actually several types of magic (and so needs to double rather than match the level). For comparison the examples of "specific types of magic" that are given in the RAW are things like "Hermetic Terram magic"; Parma Magica seems a much broader category than this. If you wanted to destroy the target's Parma versus a single Form then that would be fine as a "specific type of magic".

But I guess that's a call that your troupe needs to make.

Alternatively every apprentice learns this spell at level 5 and then masters it, taking the Magic Resistance Spell Mastery.

Which means you are then back to the current state. It's possible to eliminate someone's Parma, but if you can organise the Penetration to do that you may as well cast whatever you wanted to cast on them in the first place (like a Pilum of Fire); it's quicker and less risky.

Learn it at level 1 + resistance. No need to spend 4 extra magnitudes there :wink:

As pointed out before, casting this allows the enemy 1 round to react teleporting away, blasting you with something, disapprearing from your ability to detect them or puting stuff between you and them to prevent further spell targeting. It is a powerful war spell, but not the most definitive one :slight_smile:

Cheers,

Xavi

I guess so.

I agree.

Although I wonder if a character would know that his Parma had dropped? How do you know whether your Parma is there, except when things plink off it?

I think it was a passage in 4th edition about gentle gifted Jerbiton sometimes not puting on their parma, because they thought it filtered and downgraded the species they got from the environment around them.

I have always assumed that it is there even if you do not think about it. It is like wearing a T-shirt. You do not think about it, and do not notice it much, but you are aware if you are not wearing one and walking with your bare torso around :stuck_out_tongue:

Cheers,

Xavi

At a low level, this destroys parma for all newly gauntleted and even a few years out of gauntlet.

Cast this spell at level 1 and you can take down a parma of 2 provided your casting total is 11. Cast at level 5 and you take down parma of 3 as long as your casting total is 20. Admittedly vim score is added but there is also stress die added to taking it down. It is a little too abusive I think and hurts the order I think. (esp if you can cast it silent/subtle)

Parma is the order's greatest breakthrough, a unique type of magic resistance that doesn't follow the rules otherwise. First consider, 2 minutes to invoke and it supernatural ability.

Hi Lady P :smiley:
I am withdrawing this spell from your game, no worries. But it does fit within the RAW and I let it loose in other games allready :smiling_imp:

Not really worried about the repercussions on young magi. This spell is intended for hunting down renegades and the odd Diedne still on the loose. But Richard Love makes an excellent point abbout the fact that, if I can penetrate with this spell, why do I need to knock down Parma in the first place? My signature spell, "The Wound That Weeps" (Mastered 3, with Multicasting) already has a Penetration of +18 before rolling the die, so Lancea Magica is totally unnecessary.

Parma is one of the Order's breakthrough. Few non-hermetics can muster the same Penetration totals as hermetic magi can. Within the Order, it offers decent security (and cooperation!) benefits (especially if combined with an Aegis) even if it is not a perfect defense.

On a metagame level, it makes things more interesting if the Order's club is stronger than the Order's shield, precisely because the Order can then bash itself on the head. Politics. And yet it is not as Order-breaking as the identically-named breakthrough (in HoH:TL?) which ignores Parma.

The spell itself is interesting because, being its own countermeasure, once it spreads, you cannot afford not to know it. Yet, seeking it is suspect - unless, say, you're a renowned hoplite. Its only use is against the Order... or to protect you from members of the Order - including Quaesitores.

What are you afraid of, sodalis? Do you not trust your sodales?

Consider even a book on spell mastery. They're still suspect! Are you going to use it to learn Penetration Mastery or Resistance Mastery?

In the end, I wouldn't mind if one of my players introduced the spell. But then again, they're already in enough trouble that they would be leery of anything that would alienate the Order any further. Though it would be a fun spell to slip into their library to make them sweat. It wouldn't be the first landmine they have found in there.

Your saga may vary.

Here is another Hermetic-bashing spell for your perusal. Much, much more limited in its impact, and just as straightforward an application of the guidelines, but still amusing. Using it is explicitly a High Crime. :stuck_out_tongue:

PeVi 20 - Blunt the Spear of Hermes
R: Voice D:Sun T:Individual
Reduce all Hermetic Magic casting totals of the target by 10. Note that this is done after division for spontaneous spells.
(Base 3, +2 Voice, +2 Sun)

I once toyed with a Gauntlet-level PeVi Bjornaer magus build with a short-range teleportation ability ("Leap of the Stealthy Cat") from Mythic Blood, and Touch/Diameter/Individual Hermetic-bashing spells (Parma blasting, casting total-blasting...). Can't remember how I formulated his Minor Focus, though, nor if I relied on virtues or mastery to get silent/still casting.

As a Hermetic-hunting one-trick pony, it was terrifying, even without bothering with any Mysteries.

We have the same spell in our Saga and it's called Wizards Stiletto.

At first we hid it from the order as its a spell designed to be cast specifically on other Hermetic Magi. However this spell is perfectly legal for the simple reason that if it's used in Wizards War, then it's being excercised on another magus perfectly legally.

However a few things come to mind.

  1. For Parma's of 5 you are looking at a level 15 spell meaning you would need a casting total of at least 40 + the targets Vim Score to penetrate and bring down the parma.

  2. If you have a Resistance mastery in the spell this means that a Parma of 1 would require a casting total of 25 + 2x Vim score to penetrate. This would rise to 80+ for a magi with resistance.

  3. If YOU can use it, anyone else can do so too!

  4. Arcane and Sympathetic connections are usually quicker and easier, and add a huge bonus to penetration.

Its a fine and legitimate spell, but if you're going against most magi, then they're going to be able to put up a pretty hefty fight.

A

I think you have that in the spell wiki, don't you? I know that there are two or three versions of this in there, and the exact same effect invested as a device won the Magic Item Contest at the last Berkeley Tribunal (Mark P I think it was).

It is not contrary to the RAW.
We would find it unbalancing in our saga. We would ask the use of another maths for that effect: color=redIf the spell Penetrates, and then a roll of a Stress Die + (level of the spell +10) equals or exceeds ten-times the score of the target Parma Magica,
That is, double what would be normally needed. This is, as I said, for game balance in our saga.
Otherwise I feel it is too much easy to dispell the Parma Magica. Notice our group (about 30 years after gauntlet) all have a Parma score of 3, and our most dangerous hermetic rogue opponent had 6.
Our SG artificially keep parma scores low, as that is what our Troupe demands, for game balance again.
Parma Magica ought to be a mystery in 5th edition ! I'll say it again: THE MOST INTERESTING MYSTERY IN ARS MAGICA IS HERMETIC MAGIC !!!
LONG LIVE BONISAGUS !!!
:stuck_out_tongue:

Well, Parma Scores, like other aspects, do vary. In the one saga I am running, 3 is the low score. One character has 6 (4 +2 for Puissant Parma Magica), and that little minor virtue made a big difference in Certamen. The older magus only had a score of 4. That is the game where I have let the spell loose, and nothing bad has happened (yet).

In another game, low level where I am just a player, one of the very first things I did in my first year was raise my Parma up to two. Max's character, Aelianus of Verditius, the 10 year SG character, has a Parma of 4!

But anyway, I decided to not use this spell after all. It was for a character I am making for a live game, and since I am new to the troupe, I want to fit in without making waves. I'll just get by on the old fashioned Winds of Mundane Silence for now. With my Perdo score and the level I took it at, I can penetrate and knock down Parma 2 with mild effort.

My SG states that for this guideline, you need to comprehend how work what you try to dispell, and that nobody understand the parma, we just copy bonisagus gesture. It's, after all, an hermetic breakthrough :slight_smile:

I don't disagree with him on that point.