What should the market for magic items realistically look like in the order of hermes

Games Discussion Ars Magica
41

What fraction of Verditius magi are in one of the relevant confraternities?

Some Verditius magi band together in confraternities, small groups of like-minded individuals who follow a path formed by an earlier, charismatic magus.

So we're talking about only "some" rather than "most" or "many" of 74 magi split between Confraternities, which are "small." And which Confraternities? The most generally useful one (wooden wands) due to ease of transportation (weight but also laws) is Himinis the Mad, known for curses! I got the feeling from reading that it's not super-popular and that generally people would worry about buying from them, so maybe 2-3 magi people would be worried about buying from. The Confraternity of Roland seems to have a few more members (so, maybe 6-7) and an item. And now take into account that those initiated into Inner Mysteries are not the youngest of the magi, but moderate to more powerful. Combined with some strong Mysteries only they get, and that places a bunch of them among those who we've already counted as specializing in the high-end items for better profit. How many does that leave?

Meanwhile, there are a "large number" of Schools of Sebastian (from within a House of 114 magi) which grant Minor Focus. If my "small" number above was around 5, this would be, what, 15ish? Sure, many of those won't be as useful broadly. But even just two of them being canonical Minor Foci like "wood" or "arms and armor" with a parens and a young mage to make it a "school" would make 2 magi who are far more broadly able to apply their Foci than with "wooden wands" and 2 magi who are far more broadly able to apply their Foci than with "swords." And then there are all those others who are being given Foci that could be applied in more limited ways.

So just like Verditius, there are other places people pick up Foci they weren't born with, and quite a few of these magi could have even more broadly useful Foci.

And then there are all the other non-Tremere magi who haven't been counted so far. How many of them have broader Foci than "wooden wands" or "swords." We've seen examples of "wood," "clothing," "arms and armor," "metals," "stone," and maybe more.

This is why I said what I said about Lesser Enchanted Devices, having taken into account those Mysteries. We have to go beyond those Mysteries existing to really make those Verditius magi more likely. For example, suddenly the Confraternity of Himinis the Mad becomes super-popular and no one's worried about buying cursed items from some sort of Grand Tribunal ruling and House Verditius agreement, so now we've got lots of magi getting Foci in "wooden wands."

42

I would suggest that magi of the Middle Ages would never think to mass produce magic items. No finished product is mass produced in the Middle Ages. All clothes are custom made. All horseshoes are custom made. All shovels, swords, and suits of armor are made on commission. While the mail may be mass produced, the finished armor is made for the person. If you strip it off of a body on the battlefield, it will be modified to fit you as soon as possible.
The concept of mass production arose in the Industrial Revolution. Even then, off the rack clothes and shoes are a modern invention.

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43

First, we're not really talking about true mass production here. We're talking more like making several of things people are buying. But someone have have thought about mass production before the industrial revolution? If so, could they even have influenced the Order?

Are you sure the Romans custom produced arrows for each archer, pilums for each warrior, bolts for each ballista, etc.? Are you sure the Romans, from which much Hermetic culture descends, didn't use assembly-line production at all for things like these?

Or how about the Venetian Arsenal right in the middle Europe and in the middle of the timeline of the Order of Hermes?

Possibly: Roman Times: CT scans reveal Roman Mass Production Techniques

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44

The Romans did mass produce military equipment, among other things. Coins are produced in big batches. However, magic items are both expensive to produce, and have a limited legal market. (Illegal markets with nobles getting powerful items is a whole other problem.) Typically these type of items are made on commission, for a specific person. If there is one left over, or many in the case of charged items, I could see them being sold at Tribunal.
Now, I do see some spells, or magic items, being ubiquitous for Verditius, such as something to sever the Arcane Connection to their magic items. (the need to do so being ingrained in Verditius during apprenticeship) And there being a market for certain types of utility items, such as lights, is understandable. However, that is where lab texts come in very handy.
If you want to keep magic items as not just utility items, but as objects of wonder, I would suggest that most of them be made on commission, or for parties known to the mage, such as trusted servants or friends. That would keep them highly prized, the same way books are highly prized in the same time period.

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45

Thinking every enchanted item needs to be made new does ignore one thing. Enchanted items do not generally expire and can not have their Vis extracted (other than a few Verditius). This means that unless an item is lost or destroyed, they stick around pretty much forever.

How many Magi has there been total in the history of the Order? I have seen estimates range from five thousand to twelve thousand. If each Magi produces only one "Covenant Useful" item in their lifetime, that gives us thousands that might be on the second hand market even if a high'ish percentage of them (say 20~30%) are lost or destroyed. And that production average will most likely be much higher than one per Magi even if only half of them produce such an item, since often cheaper items that are useful to a Covenant can be made in batches of several in a season.

While ones that are the easiest to use will first be equipped by the Covenant that obtained them, chances are high that they will have excess. These are easy to trade though since any new or expanding Covenants will often want them. Depending on your Saga, it is perfectly possible that ones like lights could be held by the Redcaps to sell on commission. Items that are not so easily sold because they are not as much usable by every Covenant will often make an appearance at the fairs at Tribunals. Tribunals after Covenants fail, in which their items are inherited by their descendants in other Covenants, should see many that are not needed (or excess) offered for trade.

Now I am actually interested in starting a project to design a Tribunal fair. At the very least design a bunch of booths and vendors. At the very least it would provide some useful background for anyone running a game at Tribunal.

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46

This discussion made me think of a slightly off topic idea: the market for non-hermetic magic items.

Iā€™m now thinking of an exclusive secret market put on by the Augustinian Brotherhood selling Mathematici chartae, reagents from Mythic Alchemists, and potions from Mythic Herbalists or Folk Witches.

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47

That reagent bit is a big part of what I was referencing above with my character trying to get into business making Talismans for others. I realized if I'm clever I can do better using the reagents myself. Happily, I'll be able to mass-produce reagents shortly after gauntlet since I'm so focused on Finesse and experimental philosophy.

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48

If there were no mass production there be no rules for using lab texts for magic times. This is what we are really talking about. Taking advantage of the lab texts to produce identical copies at twice the rate, or even more than that for charged items.

But come to think of it, that raises a question which I think is unclear in the rules. When you use a lab text to reinvent a spell or an effect, can you tailor it to your client to avoid warping? Or does that tailoring have to be done when the lab text is first made? IIRC we had this discussion in our troupe and fell down on the liberal side, leaving the minority unconvinced.

49

I would think so. Hence one of the main reasons for making items on commission. I have a feeling that like master craftsmen throughout Europe at this time, Verditius primarily take commissions. It pays better, and brings more fame.

50

I find the Verditius rather uninteresting in this discussion. They are reputed to make unique and elaborate Greater Enchanted Devices. Such items take years to make, which means that there will not be a large number on the market. What makes the volume of the market?

I cannot really see the Verditius being any more interested in making custom made seven-league boots for a random redcap, than mass-producing lamps without flame. It is the unique items, showing mastery of both the arts and the craft, that drive the stereotypical Verditius.

That said, there are the young Verditius of small means and little experience. What do they do to earn the vis they need to enchant their own lab improvements? Very likely they do make whatever they can sell, without having any edge over any other magus of another House.

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51

I suspect there will be a balance through the levels for new items, varying from commission to essentially true mass-production, but the true mass-production won't be for magic items. I think I can break it down into four pretty well.

  • The highest-end will always be commission-only, because there are few customers and they want something very specific.
  • Lesser Enchanted Devices and Charged Devices benefit significantly from lab texts, especially Charged Devices. And don't forget those seasons your apprentice could spend on a charged item while you're working on something else (like reading). There are built-in mechanics that make everyone buying all of one sort of an item from a single mage less expensive and easier, so more likely. They're more likely to bring a sketch and details on its use than lots of the item itself, and then you order these. But they're more like print-on-demand books.
  • There are a few items that could be produced well without being sold. For example, take a Charged Item wand that casts DEO at a high level with high penetration. What covenant wouldn't mind having a few of those in their back pocket? There wouldn't be a lot of items like these, but they would very likely sell well so you could produce a bunch ahead of time. Some things like reagents could fit in here, too.
  • And then comes true mass-production using magic. I could see some covenants training grogs to use certain item to perform Rego craft magic or similar to supply all sorts of stuff covenants need relatively inexpensively. For example, one good glass-making grog with a couple items, access to sand, and a means of transport could make glassware for labs for a huge portion of the Order.
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Not my intent. I made a list of the published characters, candidates for this function, that I personally judged interesting, used them, and added a few originals.

Ruberus of Verditius showed off his sword enchanting skills, for example.

Some covenant (I forget which at the moment) displayed a recently written summa in its full illuminated, glossed, gilded glory, and took orders for subscriptions or copies.

Troya of Flambeau put on a show of magical horses, available for sale.

Others had no interest in magical commerce.

That sort of thing.