What would you change in a 6th edition?

The worst interpretation I can think of would be that the Diedne was a mystery cult where the Wicker Man Ritual was part of the outer mystery initiation. That would be rather plausible given the published material, and it would involve the entire house.

All-house diabolism is rather far-fetched since it takes a free choice to give up one's soul, but I think that within any fairly large cult, a subcult augmented by infernal mysteries is very plausible. Except if one argues that infernal corruption makes no sense in a pagan context, which would mean that truly pagan cults might be safe. TBH I have never really figured out how the infernal would work in a pagan context; it is designed to oppose the Divine, and out of that context it makes little sense. But that is a different discussion, I think.

I like to think that the Wicker Man Ritual was part of some mystery initiation in House Diedne (but probably not the outer mystery), and I find the opposition against that to be just and reasonable. This in itself would not be enough guilt to justify the Schism though, so there has to be more causes around, and more blame.

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One or more of their "pagan" gods actually being a demon is the obvious way to go for that if you want to - either it always was, or it was replaced by one at some point (which has been gradually corrupting their rites). I don't think that's a good route to go down if you want the Diedne to become a re-instated faction, though, as you'd be left with a choice of "diabolists in the Order" or "drastic changes to the basic Diedne set-up" depending on whether they renounce the relevant god(s) or not.

An alternative is just seeing "all that hysteria about demons" as being "Christian rubbish and not something we need to worry about", but that's less likely to be House wide.

I think one of the key problems the Diedne had was that when the accusations started flying, they closed ranks and refused to allow the Quaesitors to investigate. The Tytali had actual confirmed group diabolism, and I doubt they were particularly popular either (I don't think there's anything specific in the books on that, but they were Tytali), but their House survived it - because it was another Tytalus who brought it to the Quaesitors' attention, and they and other Tytali joined in bringing the diabolists down.

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[While I dislike the Diedne, I dislike the Tremere and especially the Tytalus more. Just pointing out my personal bias so people have a better understanding of where the rest of my post is coming from.]

The Diedne have always struck me as those slightly parasitic types who join a group to suck off of its advantages while providing nothing (or as close to nothing as they can) to the group. For groups that thrive on at least some extent of open sharing and exchange, having someone in the group taking and not providing puts a strain on resources and causes a lot of hard feelings. For the Diedne, things had to be their way. These had to join "their house", if they joined another wizard war them till they are all gone. Give us access to books and research. But the duties, such as sharing and submitting to the Quaesitors we will not do.

The way their house was operating was pretty much guaranteed to produce mistrust and hurt feelings across the rest of the Order. A single person leaching off of a group is generally disliked, but when you have a smaller group doing the leaching in an organized fashion it is even worse. No surprise that it eventually came to a head.

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While I'm also more a Tytalus and Tremere lover than a Diedne fan, I don't necessarily agree that bringing back the latter's magic means getting rid of the two Houses.

There is a Diedne Flaw in 5th Edition, so there's already a way to access this magic which means It's not lost. There could be a story evolution where some of its cleansed followers are integrated into House Ex Miscellanea or something that would make it playable without enormous stigma and fear of death associated with the flaw right now.
That would also allow the druidic roleplay to occur openly not inly behind closed door or hidden in the forest.

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As I see it Diedne joined under Bonisagus who wanted an order for all magical traditions, and then when it came time to start voting about it several other founders 9Guernicus, Flambeau, Tremere) decided they definitely wanted to distance themselves from paganism, which left Diedne an outcast even as a founding member, and the relationship just soured from there.

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Why, then, did Bjornær fare better?

Unlike the Diedne, House Bjornaer did not offend House Tremere by doing human sacrifices, nor did they completely refuse the Quaesitores to investigate them. They also hadn't pissed off many of the traditions that formed Ex Miscellanea.

But most importantly I believe, was that while other Houses may have looked down on House Bjornaer as barbarians, nobody was afraid of what the Bjornaer may have been up to.
Things could have gone bad for House Bjornaer even so, but then the Diedne drew all the anger towards them while House Bjornaer made themselves scarce, and after the Schism War was over nobody felt like fighting any more.

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House Bjornaer also sought to change its customs during the schism war, such as avoiding seeking apprentices raised in the wilds, to lose the pagan barbarian stigma.

I really like this picture of Diedne. It makes them kind-of culpable without actually being evil - just kind of a-holes.

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Because the animism of the beasts is not religeous?
/sarcasm

Much better answers have already been given.

Bjorner was pagan (originally) but wasn't really focused on it- historically pagan cultures didn't really worry about Christian vs. pagan until after they had been persecuted by Christians, and ever then people who had been Christian and converted to paganism were the ones who were actively hostile towards Christianity. At minimum Diedne clearly saw Christianity as a threat (then again Charlemagne had just executed thousands of Danes for refusing to convert, so perhaps she was simply aware of the facts), while Bjorner really didn't seem to care about how they were seen or what the Christians were doing. The area that Bjorner was from was not militarily converted for anther several centuries after their founding as a house, nd they didn't restrict membership in their house on a religious basis. Diedne and Bjorner were both pagan but Diedne was all about being pagan, where Bjorner happened to be pagan.

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You're right, that would be the worst interpretation. And the most plausible one, if they were indeed fully guilty.

The wicker men were probably real, but it doesn't appear that that represented common druidism. We have to remember that much of what we know about druids comes from Caesar, who had a vested interest in painting them in a negative light.

Human sacrifice occured occasionally in most pagan religions, including the Germanic ones, as evidenced by the bog men, and Graeco-Roman, although it had largely disappeared by the imperial period, having been outlawed under the Republic (though that doesn't necessarily mean that it never occured after that). The story of Iphegenia is a relic of its having existed in Greek religion. In the better sort of pagainsm, it was a very rare thing, a response to great crisis and danger. In the worse sort, such as Carthage and Canaan, or the Aztecs, it was a regular practice. The evidence points toward druidism being among the former. And if James Frazier is correct, all of them (not including the Aztecs) go back to the whole Golden Bough, dying god, corn king thing, a kind of proto-pan-paganism common to the West and Near East.

There's also, in the Old Testament, the story of Abraham and Isaac, which was only stopped at the last moment by an angel, and Jepthah, who vowed to sacrifice the first thing he saw when he came home to God, and his daughter came out the door to greet him. Some Rabbinical commentators think that "devote" here doesn't mean ritual killing, but that she dedicated her life to God and never married, but who knows. And let's not forget that the Christian religion is entirely one Great Act of not only human but Divine sacrifice, and that every day in churches all over medieval Europe, that sacrifice is repeated: since Catholic doctrine is that at the moment of Consecration by the priest, he is literally participating in the death of Christ, and then he and all the worshipers eat Jesus's actual flesh and drink His actual blood. Which takes us back to the dying god, or in this case dying God thing.

There are even reasons not to see druidism as necessarily pagan in the perjorative sense. There are stories such as the druids having seen signs in the heavens around the time of the Nativity, and more or less correctly interpreting them. Similar to how some Church Fathers and theologians credit Virgil with having prophesied Christ's birth. There's a whole school of Christian thought, called prisca theologia, which says that there were traces of The Truth all over the world, in pre-Christian religions, which foreshadowed it all. The monotheism of Zoroaster and Hermes Trismegistus are examples, and one of the reasons which what we call now "occultism" was not really all that frowned upon in the middle ages, as opposed to necromancy and what came to be called, unfortunately "witchcraft," by which they actually meant diabolism.

Anyway, back to the point: the narrative has always been that Diedne was "the remnants of the druids". However, if human sacrifice was The Mystery of Diedne, even the inner mystery, then they wouldn't represent the remnants of the druids in general, but a druidic sect..."shadow druids," to use a D&Dism. And especially, since we're talking about the 8th century here, druidic paganism itself would have been rare, as all the Celtic cultures had been Christian for four or five hundred years, and a cult of dark human sacrificers would have been exceedingly rare, small, and necessarily secretive. Especially since the wicker man ritual is much harder to perform in secret than say, stabbing a victim on an altar.

But that presumes that they were, in fact, guilty.

Yeah, that's the real problem. A breech of the Code, and since technically the only punishment for a breech is death.... But legal and illegal and right and wrong are two different things. The Albigensian Crusade was technically legal, under the law at the time--but was it right? The prosecution of the Templars likewise. Or a thousand more examples, from the execution of thousands of witches whose names we don't know, to the trial of Jeanne d'Arc, to the Crucifixion itself. All legal, at the times of their occurence.

A more sensible and humane course would have been to use diplomacy and negotiation to try and get Diedne to cooperate, rather than immediately resorting to genocide. Even with the Cathars, they tried for quite a long time to use other methods of persuasion before calling the crusade. Tremere's haste looks like guilt and an agenda to me.

I assume that most here are familiar with this? https://www.mymegaverse.org/nexx/Ars/diedne2.html

As I understand it, this is a revision of an article which had first appeared in Sub Rosa. This is pretty much exactly the way I see the thing. And what I use as the true story, in my version of Mythic Europe.

Yes, the characters do have access to it as you say. But we, the players, do not. I guess what I'm really advocating is that the house, the mystery, and the magic be written up in books, so that we can use it in our games if we want to.

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There is also strong evidence that for the Druids human sacrifice was closely associated with the death penalty for criminals, to the degree that some suggest it was simply a ritualized execution.
Of course if Diedne believed in reincarnation it also could have been involved in a ritual initiation for the next life, or an ascendancy to living ghost or apotheosis, which would make it a legitimate mystery that Guernicus should not have been looking into.

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It becomes pretty tedious when you have to provoke somebody to commit a capital crime, just to get the next level of initiation.

My concept of the initiation was that the person being sacrificed was being initiated- maybe an unGifted individual could be sacrificed to be reborn with the Gift (or even the gentle Gift), or of course the Living Ghost or Apotheosis both suggest that the sacrificed person is actually being transformed.

Yes, that's true. It's also thought the same of the Germanic bog-men.

In light of the centuries of Celtic Christianity and the prisca theologia view of druidism, I interpret them in my Mythic Europe as no longer being truly pagan--like the Mercurians: they don't truly worship the gods anymore, and many of them are even Christian, but they still practice certain ceremonial rites that descend from the old religion. Such things would still be highly suspicious to the medieval Church, if not outright heresy or apostasy, and so that's one reason for their secretiveness. The Mercurians don't advertise their practices either. And within the Order, it's because of the hostility toward them from the Mercurian Roman purists, as well as fear of the same from the Jerbitons and the more Catholic-oriented Flambeaus.

As well, it could just be that they take vows of secrecy as part of their initiation, like freemasons, and their refusal to let their rites be examined is a sacred duty to them. Or will invoke the death penalty upon themselves by other members of the mystery.

Is this what you see surviving into the 13th century or what they were at the schism?
My impression is that Diedne saw Christianity as the enemy and was trying to preserve her tradition against it, though of course I can see where if they did survive and remain in the order that this goal would likely had to have failed.

Does anyone actually know the extent of pagans beliefs in the 11C onwards? We tend to make them very present in game settings, even in tribunals like Hibernia and Stonehenge which were Christened before the formation of the Order. How plausible is that? Even at Schism time?

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Looking at the real world, you would have to search long and hard to find any actual pagans in most of Europe by the 11th century. Some of the more remote regions (Scandinavia, the Baltic states, etc) were still not fully Christianised by then, but they were exceptions. (The Grand Duchy of Lithuania did not become officially Christian until 1387, as the last European state to do so.)
In the early to mid 11th century you would still have some pagan vikings who came raiding to the south, but that had pretty much ended by the late 11th century.

People who still followed some old pagan practices while being nominally Christian were probably quite common in many rural areas, but most of them would think of themselves as Christian.

You would also find some pagan people on the borders of Mythic Europe, like the Sami people in northern Scandinavia, or the Mongol horde to the east.

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