When is a spell protected by MR ?

Suppose I want to Unravel the Form of X out of a spell. The spell is right now affecting magus Adversius. If he lowers his Parma, I can certainly do it. The obnoxious person that he is, Adversius refuses to lower his Parma. Do I need to penetrate him Magic Resistance to affect the spell ? Does it depend on the spell in question ? What if it's Circling Winds of Protection ? What if it's a Personal-range Bear's Fortitutde ? Or a Touch-range one - note Adversius needed to lower his own Parma to cast that spell on himself, does that matter ? What if I'm trying to unravel a spell with a target of Group, but only Adversius (out of several other affected magi) is on my sights?

I'm having a hard time deciding just what can and cannot be Unravelled (or Winded to Mundane Silence or so on) and what enjoys MR protection.

If you were to visualize the spell, would it look like the magus is painted? Can the spell be simulated by paint on him? If the answer is "yes" you need to penetrate MR to unravel it. So a personal spell for sure, MR. A spell that is cast at touch range but is basically a personal spell like bear's fortitude goes by that parameter as well. Circling winds, no since you cannot paint an active whirlwind on someone. Target group, depends, but if it is a group version of a personal spell (like a ward against fire) yes, you would have to penetrate MR.

This is how I would do it, anyway :slight_smile: Never came up as a problem IMS since we are not much into Vim ourselves.

We proceed in a way similar to Xavi's, albeit perhaps with less visual immediacy. Whether a spell is affecting Adversius or not is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether the Target of the spell is within Adversius' Parma. If it is, the Parma protects the spell. If it is not, the Parma does not. In this regard, it's important to remember that the Target of a Creo spell that brings stuff into existence is the stuff itself, not who gets "affected" by the stuff (i.e. it's the Pilum of Fire, not who gets singed by it).

Let's look at the cases you bring up. The Target of Circling Winds of Protection is the whirlind, so it's not within Adversius' Parma, and can be Unraveled without penetrating it. If Bear's Fortitude has been cast on Adversius, then Adversius is the Target, and his parma must be penetrated to Unravel Bear's Fortitude; this holds regardless of the Range at which Bear's Fortitude was cast.

The last case is the only tricky one, and for reasons unrelated to your question. If I cast a spell with Target Group, do I need to perceive the entire group to affect it? No, in my opinion, just like I don't need to perceive the back of a person to make that entire person invisible. If not, and only the portion "within my sights" is protected from my magics, does the rest get affected? Yes, in my opinion, since I can target the entire Target by perceiving only a portion of it, and parma does not block perception.

For the group spell, if you only have Adversius in your sights your in trouble, IMO. Trying to target the bit of spell on him gets M.R. But if you change to see an unprotected chump you can dispel the bit on the unprotected chump, and get rid of the whole spell including anything on Adversius.

But that's just me.

IMHO, dispelling spells that have T:Group is tricky. This may be tangential to the subject, but I would say that to in order to unravel a spell, you need to be able to either perceive it directly (through InVi) or by targeting the Target of this spell. In the second case, if this was a T:Group spell, you will only be dispelling it on the individual you are targeting, unless your unravelling spell is itself T:Group.

This avoids the strangeness of being able to unravel a spell cast on a group, when said group has scattered miles apart, by simply targeting a single individual of that group.

To me, a T:Group spell is similar to having multiple instances of a T:Ind spell all cast at once -- each individual target has its own effect anchored to him.

Yes.

No. If you want to dispel a spell affecting a person, that effect is covered by that person's Magic Resistance, regardless of the spell in question.

Circling Winds is subject to debate - what do you consider to be target of the spell? The individual affected by it (meaning you can cast it on someone else) or the air around you (the Rego requisite making the effect follow you from the initial point of casting). If the former, it's covered by Magic Resistance, if the latter it's not.

Covered by Magic Resistance.

Only to make the above point - in my opinion he needs to lower his Parma to cast a Touch range Winds of Circling Protection that is centered on himself as well. Since he's the target of the effect, the spell is covered by his Magic Resistance.

Never really considered this, but I'm tempted to go with Arthur on this one. I can understand the reasoning for arguing otherwise as well though, so I'm really undecided.

What is the problem with this?

It gives the appearance of going against the Limit of Arcane Connection, in that your are affecting something that you do not perceive.

Furthermore, the initial group no longer fits the definition of R:Group, so it seems that either the magic of the spell is diffused through a very large area, leaving the members of the group linked (which leads me to theorize that there should be an arcane connection between members of the group), or that the spell is broken up in pieces, one for each individual affected.

Of course, that is a matter of how we understand and visualize Hermetic magic working. So some will not think it strange that you can dispell all of the spell even though its targets are scattered. Personally, I do find it strange, hence my reply (which was labelled "IMHO" right from the beginning). YMMV and all that.

Good point.

Nice. I love that.

I think that is exactly how I would play it.

  • You can dispell a Group spell by targeting the effect on any individual (remember that the magnitude of the Group spell is higher than the equivalent Individual spell, so dispelling a Group spell is, normally, harder than dispelling the equivalent Individual spell).
  • This appears to break the Limit of Arcane Connections.
  • Therefore there is some sort of "Arcane Connection" between the individuals affected by a Group effect.
  • But this "Arcane Connection" does not normally seem to be accessible for other purposes (targeting other spells, boosting penetration).
  • Therefore, there must somewhere be some Bonisagus magi working on a research project to understand how to grasp this "Arcane Connection" for other uses.

A tytalus mage uses this to create a cheap messaging system. Dispel a group light spell, and everyone sees the light go dark, and gets a pre-set message. For example
"We are under attack"! Or you could also create more complex codes!

But yes, I'm sure the Boni will be able to find a use for it.

Essentially an anti-vivisectionist form of telling the time by using Powder of Sympathy http://www.creative-science.org.uk/hollywood21.html?

Sorry, I read this and all my mind comes up with is "Quantum Entanglement".

Yeah, that's the basic idea of it.

Actually just stumbled upon a reference in the core book that makes this interpretation unlikely:

So it seems it boils down to "one group, one effect" being RAW.