Where is the Order of Reason?

It was a mystery cult at one time, but personally I think that this was just people of the day trying to categorize it as something they could understand.

I would go further, and say that the Orthodox did this as well, and so did Judism and Islam. Protestants do it to

As would I. Personally, I feel that "Reason", as the term is applied in ArM3, is kind of insulting to Religion and Science. We stand on the shoulders of giants. I had an argument rescently (well, a debate really) with this one friend of mine. Hippie sort of fella, into sci-fi science and loves to bash on the ignorance of religion. Somehow he has it stuck in his head that Modern = smart and Ancient = stupid. He was laughing about how ignorant people were when they though the Northern Lights were spirits dancing in the sky. Never heard of that one, but I went with it. I asked him how does he know they are not. He wants to argue modern science and people back then were stupid. I pointed out how he has no scientific education, and is simply taking what “educated” people say and accepting it on faith.

Needless to say, there was little to no progress made in this debate.

You don't see the sacraments as the rituals of a Mystery cult? It does kind of spoil things when the entire world actually knows what the Mysteries are, I agree.

I agree, insofar as I understand these things, but I'm not all that clear on Jewish or Islamic theology.

Much snippage...

I have seen a myth of two warring tribes of irish faeries creating the lights

I can see your point, but I'd also support his point to the degree that there's a far higher level of general knowledge among those without specialist education in the modern day. Medieval peasants weren't stupid, but they were rather like people from the third world today who lack higher education. This means they can only use their intelligence in a framework that their society creates for them, in which their basic function is to farm things.

Now, I do see that the problem, for me, would be to demonstrate that I too am not in the same sort of framework: where my basic function is to buy stuff. Unfortunately I don't think I can prove that. As a geeky vegetarian I can look at the big bits of commerical modern society that I choose not to participate in (fashion, the meat industry) and see how society uses these things to shape people's actions. Having read the works of various sociopaths, though, they seem to clearly state that many of the other things I do are based on arbitrary methods of control, and much like the medieval peasant who cannot cast aside his piety or the third world farmer who will not leave his land, so I too am unwilling to let go of my image of myself, and so I am in much the same boat as they are. The only argument I could make stick, I think, on behalf of your hippie friend is that my cage is rather cleaner and more comfortable than that of the medieval peasant, and so I enjoy my society more than he did, as do the oithers who share society with me. That is, on some level it is more fair.

At its beginning, the goal of the Order, which doesn't even exist by this name, is to understand the world trough science. They recognize the existence of magic, and try to understand it to their beliefs.

And, to go further, the Order of Reason, the Ivory Tower, and later the Technocracy NEVER believed that magic doesn't exist; their goal was to make OTHER people believe it.

One must not imagine the first scientist act like the latest Men in Black; at the beginning, scientists who could approach magic studied it like anyhting else. They were thrilled. Then one day, a scientist rush out of his lab, and say: "Hey guys! Remember that Hermes folk who could fly? Look at what I invented!", and so they could fly too. Then they realized a machine could be used by everyone, contrary to magic which was reserved to people possessing the Gift.

At this point, I imagine that Reason created hidden fortress, like Alliances, as the Church dislikes their inventions. When the Church began to lose its power, the Reason was strong: deadly weapons, wondrous mean of transport, wonderful tools which help everyone's life. The Reason realized they could change the world, make it a paradise for everyone: heated house, rapid transport, more protection for commoner. But wait... those magi are there again? Mmmh, this could prove a problem... These guys could destroy what we worked so hard. We MUST strike before they strike, but how? Let's study some way to inder magic.

And the rest is history.

I too loathe the Realm of Reason, for the reasons brought up - it does a disservice to both religion and reason, the use of reason in Mythic Europe should lead to something like Natural Magicians, not work against "superstitions" which are true.

Your take on Reason is interesting, though. I could see how, in a Belief Defines Reality game, you can create another possible viewpoint on the world, another Realm. However, I still don't think it would be Reason. This isn't a way to look at the world, this is a way to close your eyes to the word; and calling it Reason is downright insulting.

Regarding the whole atheism thing, I'd add my voice to the militant atheist camp in supporting Dawkins and rejecting the classification of atheism as religion. I think Timothy Ferguson explained this marvelously well.

I would say I don't always agree with Dawkins' arguments or tactics. But I do agree with his overall project (and arguments), definitely see religion and atheism as having a lot to do with Reason, and don't consider atheism to be a religion anymore than not-believing-in-Newton's-mechanics is a religion. Not every position on what the world works and what are its constituents is a religion, or ever a religous position.

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The Ivorywhat? The Technocrawhat? :stuck_out_tongue:


With all due respect, that's the background of a completely different game and has nothing at all to do with Ars Magica. White Wolf might have brought the Realm of Reason into 3rd edition as a clumsy segue into Mage, but never the Order of Reason or any proto-technomancers.

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Yes!!!! Exactly!!! And apothecarians and alchemists... :smiley: :wink:

Hrm, guys, could you take the rants to private discussion? If the thread gets closed, you'll have spoiled it for everyone else. :frowning:

Sounds like we're looking at something like a steampunk future.

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After months of dormancy my spaminater powers are once again used in the service of Mankind


I'm not quite sure that the ties with White Wolf backgrounds have been totally severed, and for this:

In "Societates", and particularly in the Ex-Miscellanea chapter, there are two things: first, one of the Ex-Miscellanea Tradition is named "Pharmacopeians", which is the name of one of the Tradition who will join the Order of Reason, becoming later the Bio-Engineers.

Second, the founder of the Rustic Tradition (which specialize in making magic unknown to commoners) is Reismann, who is a great name in the future Order of Reason.

I'm not saying that the Order of Reason is here, the background is vague enough to allow Storytellers who dislike the Reason to simply ignore it, but I now have elements to say that Atlats hasn't discarded totally the option, and has not severed all ties with the White Wolf background.

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To the best of my knowledge, both of those are pure coincidence. We intend the background to be completely severed from the WW background, so we're likely to say things that flatly contradict it at various points.

But it's your game; if you want to maintain the link, go for it.

(Also, note that legally we have to keep the link severed.)

As the author of the Pharmacopeian tradition, I assure you that the tradition has nothing to do with anything written by WW. I have played a WOD once, as a vampire hunter and using GURPS rules. I've never read a book from Mage or any other WOD game.

According to Wikipedia, the term "pharmacopeia" was first in print in 1561. It means a collection of recipes for apothocaries to use in creating their wares using plant, animal and mineral ingredients. It's not exactly something invented by WW. My first idea was to call them "Root-Cutters," but was convinced that it belittled the tradition, so I gave them "Pharmacopeians" as their OoH name, but kept Root-Cutters as the popular name for the tradition.

Any resemblance to any WOD "Pharmacopeians" is purely coincidental.

Thank you very much for your answers :slight_smile:

Well, let's say that these coincidences made a storyteller happy by helping him mixing the storylines ^^

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And that's a good thing. It's nice when we accidentally make people happy; the reverse seems to happen rather too often.