Which Esoteric Mystery Cults do you use?

[BoXer]

Ovarwa, much of what you say is true and a I agree in principle. Only comments i would make are the following:

with cthonic magic, it has been brought to my attention just today offboards that in order to use this virtue as a focus for higher casting total the character would have to be committing an act he/she knows is evil which is truly inviting infernal attention and taint. Not the best choice compared to a neutral focus (major or minor).

and..

Flawless magic does not grant the ability to cast without words or gestures, it merely gives you a starting 1 in mastery of new spells. Granted a character could take either subtle or 1x quiet magic as a mastery skill but completely silent and still casting would require two more mastery levels for each spell. having a character with that Major Virtue in table top play i can say that it is truly an overrated virtue in the long run. I would much rather have the combo I suggested if multiple MVs were permissable AND if i was playing a damage dealer magi.

Skilled Parens is also nice for char gen points but in the long run it is isnt as useful as many other virtues that keep on giving during play. Cyclical Magic, Deft Form or Potent Magic are much more continuously useful virtues.

[Ovarwa]

Hi!

@BoXer

with cthonic magic, it has been brought to my attention just today offboards that in order to use this virtue as a focus for higher casting total the character would have to be committing an act he/she knows is evil which is truly inviting infernal attention and taint. Not the best choice compared to a neutral focus (major or minor).

Depends on the game and character, certainly! Cthonic Magic gives power... with potential consequences. A player who thinks his SG will give him infernal attention because of this virtue might do well to just take an appropriate Flaw to represent this! Then there's no whining about unfairness.

So, which is worse, a major flaw involving the Infernal, or a major flaw involving the Diedne? At least the Infernal flaw give real points.

Flawless magic does not grant the ability to cast without words or gestures, it merely gives you a starting 1 in mastery of new spells. Granted a character could take either subtle or 1x quiet magic as a mastery skill but completely silent and still casting would require two more mastery levels for each spell. having a character with that Major Virtue in table top play i can say that it is truly an overrated virtue in the long run. I would much rather have the combo I suggested if multiple MVs were permissable AND if i was playing a damage dealer magi.

It is overrated. But it's significantly better than a minor virtue, and FFM suddenly makes the virtue worth a second look. After all, a magus with FFM already wants to have lots of formulaic spells with which to be flexible. A magus with FM wants... to have lots of formulaic spells that have 5 free xps. Spending a few seasons studying an ordinary formulaic spell might not be worth very much... but investing that time in a spell that can be used flexibly.... that's interesting.

There are probably a few tractati floating around House Flambeau pertaining to Pilum of Fire! Or maybe Arc of Fiery Ribbons. So this magus spends three to seven seasons (he's guaranteed 10xp/season, even without a Tractatus) bringing mastery to a 5, and has the benefits of Mastery with many similar spells. Arc of Fiery Ribbons at Sight range, or a larger Group, or for Diameter.... All mastered. That starts to get interesting. And then multicast 5 of them.

Or a Perdo specialist might enjoy having a few spells pumped up this way. A demon hunter might really like his DEO, and will already want to multi-cast this. When he invests the effort, he also masters a Sight version, and a version that works as long as he concentrates, and a version...

Each virtue is sub-par taken alone; together.... interesting.

Still, minor virtues may prove better in the long run! Having multiple Major Hermetic Virtues doesn't seem to imbalance things.

Skilled Parens is also nice for char gen points but in the long run it is isnt as useful as many other virtues that keep on giving during play. Cyclical Magic, Deft Form or Potent Magic are much more continuously useful virtues.

Maybe. Maybe. But a character who plays a saga where everyone starts out right after their Gauntlet will probably do very well with this virtue.

Consider: Book Learner might be the best xp-granting virtue out there. At 3xp/season, a character who takes this instead of Skilled Parens will catch up to the xp side of things in 20 seasons of study, or five years.... if he gets to read every season. And maybe another season or two to grab the spells. Add more seasons to cover stories and other events that pull the character away from the library.

The saga might be over by then! Meanwhile, the first player has been enjoying the benefits and power of Skilled Parens. Even if the saga isn't over yet, the Book Learner will not truly draw even for another twenty seasons of enjoying the benefits of pulling away. So, after more than a decade, everything is fair. Is the saga over yet?

Skilled Parens: Worth a second look.

Starting play as a newly Gauntleted magus with a casting and lab totals over 60 within a focus.... is a virtue all its own.

Anyway,

Ken

[The_Fixer]

@Ovarwa

Depends on the game and character, certainly! Cthonic Magic gives power... with potential consequences. A player who thinks his SG will give him infernal attention because of this virtue might do well to just take an appropriate Flaw to represent this!

For me, this is more of a roleplay question.

Hum... let me quote:

@RoP: tI

to activate this, he must perform some kind of sinful act immediately before or during the casting, which influences and becomes part of the spell. This must be something that the caster himself knows to be wicked or evil (though not nescessarily a mortal sin) and must be performed deliberately

This precludes any conceptions about the character: No saying that he's at heart a good guy playing with forces he doesn't understand, "just a pagan from a different religion" or something else: This implies that you play a somewhat "rotten" character.

[Ovarwa]

@The Fixer

@RoP: tI

to activate this, he must perform some kind of sinful act immediately before or during the casting, which influences and becomes part of the spell. This must be something that the caster himself knows to be wicked or evil (though not nescessarily a mortal sin) and must be performed deliberately

This precludes any conceptions about the character: No saying that he's at heart a good guy playing with forces he doesn't understand, "just a pagan from a different religion" or something else: This implies that you play a somewhat "rotten" character.

In one sense, definitely rotten. But in another.... the dominant theology in Mythic Europe holds that everyone is rotten. Everyone sins. A character who uses the full power of Cthonic Magic is definitely sinning--and knows it. But a character who cheats on his wife, who charges a little bit more for his goods at market than he believes they are worth, who blasphemes when he trips over something and falls in the mud and ruins his new set of clothing, is also rotten. These actions are wrong; they are sins, and pretty much everyone knows it.

The fellow who calls upon Cthonic Magic isn't that different from most folks. He's a sinner, and acting in his own interest (as he sees it). But his sins aren't mortal. Yet.

Anyway,

Ken

[The_Fixer]

Hum... There's the notion of deliberate action. The man who cheats on his wife knows what he's doing, and does it anyway. The man who falls and curses inadvertantly isn't telling himself "I'm gonna curse if I fall".

So, anyway, this makes at least a difference: Using Cthonic Magic to boost your totals is comparable to the former, not the later.

This is, IMO, the difference between being rotten and being a sinner.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

Thinking more about what virtues are best for spont experts, I strongly recommend Charm Magic. It's a minor virtue, and requires Faerie Magic, but is probably the best thing around for spontaneous casters.

The key is that its bonus adds to the casting total, not the casting score. A magus with Faerie Magic 6 or better can conceivably accumulate a bonus of up to Faerie Magic + 6 to his casting total.

Of course, the magus needs charms for this, but a character with an appropriate characteristic and ability would do well to spend a season making permanent charms! And then add one or two charms to his repertoire every season. A Charm expert might have two hundred little talismans (small 't') representing "magus," "peasant," "animal," "bird," "winter," "summer," "spring," "autumn..."

A SG might decide that it takes time for the magus to use all the charms, but for a +10 (or better; +10 can usually be achieved) to casting totals that's usually worth it. Did I mention that this works even when dividing the casting score by five? No fatigue, no botch.

Just a minor virtue. No risk of being Marched (Diedne) or suiciding on a botch (LLSM). No Infernal taint (Cthonic). It combines nicely with Diedne Magic, but doesn't really need it.

Honorable mention goes to Spell Foci; this adds one applicable Form or Material bonus to the casting total, bounded by Magic Theory, but that will probably add +3 to +5; +7 tops, regardless of Magic Theory. OTOH, any magus will want a good MT, and this doesn't require the same investment as Charm Magic.

The two minor virtues have the same kind of flavor, requiring a magus to carry around lots of tchotchkes. Not overly powerful, but definitely useful and extremely flavorful.

Invocation Magic is not nearly as good, despite being a major virtue. It requires Names of Power, each Name of Power takes a season to research, invoking each NoP requires a round and a die roll, botches are supposed to be especially severe, the benefit is limited by Magic Theory, and after all this, the benefit applies to the casting score. Meh.

(It's not a very good major virtue at all, and even a dedicated Theurge doesn't get much out of it.)

Anyway,

Ken

[4thWrldEuropan]

@cj.23

Anyone else? anyone designed their own yet?

cj x

Ooh, ooh,

I've been invited to design one for my magus with a Cabal Legacy virtue. I'm currently studying the text and having looooads of fun imagining, taking notes and chatting with our story guide.