3 ex Misc, one of whom became Tremere with True Lineages
2 Criamon
3 Verditius
1 Flambeau
3 Bjornaer
2 Bonisagus
1 Guerincus
1 Diedne - sorry, ex Misc...
(There were many, many character changes)
New 5th Ed game:
2 Merinita (both Unseeli; one intending to petition Flambeau for membership)
1 Verditius
1 Guericus
1 Criamon
2 Undecided
I don't think that anyone was advocating a slavish obedience to published material. Rather, to put it in terms similar to your's, I was advocating;
"Screw other people's games... Seriouly Sphynx I don't see where you're going with this. It's much cooler to base a world were things are tuned to your game, where the other covenants exist to fit the needs of your story. If this means that your game is not compatible with anyone else's so be it. I use other people's games as examples only, especially since I play big story order shaking Europe wide games where the character's actions change everything..."
(that was meant in a spirit of fun)
I do see where you're coming from with making the setting your own. I don't see why the distributuon of houses in other people's games is going to be more than a fun peek into what others are doing.
However, I do think it's way cooler to 'borrow' covenants from other people. I'd love to see completely posted (with stats for every character) Covenants somewhere that I could throw into my story. It's fun, for me at least, to compare covenants.
Its up to the SG's to post what we have though I think we are heavy on Bjornares, given the number of people who could change into various creatures we have.
But this raised an interesting point. I frankly don't know the houses of most of the players I can guess on some but others are a total mystery to me. And at the end of the day does it matter?
Since the houses mean nothing anyway who cares what houses you have? Of course this is a personal view but I don't see any signficant meaning to the various houses of the Order. They don't "define" your character, they have no signficant IC impact on anything, there is no (real) limitation to character generation due to being in this or that house, and even if I was to take a positive view I don't see what for example being in house Jerbiton means to my character.
Any mage can be a fire wizard outstripping house flambeau, any mage can be better dealing with mundanes then house Jerbiton, etc. Houses Bjornaer, Vertitius (or whatever), Meritina and Cimeron have the distinction of being mysteries so you are given something special for being in there but the others are blase.
If you are munchening your character you just take the house that gives you the best minor virtue. For me I picked Jerbiton simply because not one of the others even remotely appealed to me. The little blurbs on them I read didn't make any resonate with me and while Jerbiton didn't resonate at least it wasn't a problem fitting my character in it. Though he is anything but some artist sigh
So if on an individual basis house matters not in the least (beyond a single minor virtue) why does it matter what your covenent looks like? Or what the Order's covenents look like? The PC's will always be exceptions not the rule anyway. Unless the story guide actively sets out to make use of the houses they simply are a line on your character sheet and mean nothing except for the ocasional IC reference. This is even before things like personal taste in campaign style get factored in.
For me personally unless the houses mean something they are might as well just get axed.
Have you browsed the tribunals in Project Redcap? Almost all of them have stats, though most are of prior editions.
Oh, and hi Sphynx
PaulIM:
Houses are meaningful to the extent that they come into your play. If you treat houses as nothing more than virtue packages, then of course they are meaningless except perhaps as useful divisions for splatbooks. If you put the politics, structure, and mystic secrets of the Houses into play then they can offer much more.
For example, I have two Tremere magi in my saga. I certainly expect to use the House's strict politics to create some plots and twists, something I couldn't do without the House structure to support me.
Most importantly, the Houses provide a framework a new player can wrap his mind around. Having twleve magi archetypes is just as important as having 11 base classes in D&D, and serves the same role.
Well frankly I don't see what politics, structure or mystic secrets most houses have. The mystery houses certainly have mystic secrets I guess (not having read the source books I can only guess) but politics? What politics does a house have if you are in a covenent and don't even see another member of your house except once every five years if you're lucky and have never met the "leader" of your house?
Structure? Hell people argue that the Order doesn't have structure so heaven forbid a house having it.
Do you see what I am saying?
Uh why not? Are you saying that if you had say 2 Flambeau you could not also have political plots with twists? For that matter say you are talking about 2 companions could they not be involved in a political plot with twists?
Not really. The basic classes of D&D give different abilities. All mages are basically the same...they fall in the class "PC-mage." A group of all fighters, or all wizards or all rogues in D&D would be in far deeper do do then a typical group of mages. The essence of D&D is that all classes have a place in the party. Its irrelevant which houses are in your covenent, it certainly doesn't change the plots you can run any.
It to be in a house you had to take a virtue (rather than having it given free) then what you are saying would make more sense. But the 12 houses don't (for me at least) define diddly. There is for example no requirement that a flambeau mage even knows Ignem or knows the Pilum of Fire. Something you would imagine they would all have spell mastery in.
Since there is no real limitation on how you make your mage and the house is an afterthought (you can decide on your house after you build your mage if you want) at best then well then the houses loose any value they might have had for me.
You could take my mage and put him in a different house and nothing would change significantly in the sense of the character. Fine I toss out the "good teacher" virtue and take something else but otherwise...nothing of consiquence.
Even the clans of vampires in the computer game Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines seem more defining then the houses of the Order (go Tremere go in this case as it is unique). And the houses are even less defining then say the decision in Fading Suns to say which faction you are from (nobles, guild, or church).
To me for something to be meaningful it has to mean something and the houses of the Order of Hermes don't (again beyond the obvious mystery houses or the questitors)...and even so its pretty pathetically minor what those houses mean.
For a new player are you sure that the descriptions in the rule book are of that much value? Those little blurbs are not terribly enlightening to be honest.
Of course I could be just reacting to reading too much munchanizm which always makes me somewhat sour.
The place of Houses in the Order of Hermes has always been a quizzical one for me. I have never been sure how House traditions survived in multiple generations of multi-House covenants. Still, Houses are an easy concept to grasp for beginning players, a template around which one may fashion a character.
For those interested in two different takes on the topic of Houses and their place in the Order, let me link you to two articles, the first by me, the second by my good friend Niall Christie:
Essentially the first article argues that the best way to maintain House traditions would be to have most covenants become mono-House institutions; the second article suggests that it would be better to drop the concept of Houses altogether and keep the mixed covenants. Both are valid, both are interesting. I would certainly be interested in feedback on either of them.
PErsonally, I think the complete loss of Houses would be better for the game. In the games I run, Houses mean nothing after character creation, Covenants are all that matter.
every young Tremere is a slave to his older house members, he is in an ARMY which can dominate his life in many ways
every guernicus is a Quaesitor, a law-loving Judge und Detektive
every bonisaus is a) someone who wants to know as many as possible b) a very political interesstet person
every Mercere who has the Gift is very unique und has some very special rules for him and is seen very special
Bjornaer are guides by the hearthbeasts which are a part of their house and they divide in two big fractions
flambeau are Ignem and/or Perdo maniacs which like to settel thinks by a fght
jerbiton are never magi that hates mundanes
ect.
Another member of your house is a person whi you share many thing in your way to life, to see the world, to lave and hate, yes they are important. Your primi (ok not in ex Misc) have power over you. You learned every thing of your master, and he learned every thng from his master, especialy in true lineages it should be a very close bond to the tihnks the fonders have thought.
Ok if you play a other D&D and dont play Ars Magica Houses and the whole background arent important, but if you want to feel the things like they should be, then you have to put in the whole background. And not just the rules für ass-kicking magic...
While I certainly understand how an individual campaign may not use the Houses in a Saga, the Houses have been apart of Ars Magica since 2nd Edition and are selling point/draw for many players.
One of the reoccuring themes in my campaign is the conflict between Houses and Covenants. Houses reflect the tradition and history of the Order of Hermes, the influence, importance, and sometimes obstinance of an older generation. Covenants can reflect the growth, vitality, and boldness of a younger generation. Domus Magi reflect House traditions and politcs, they are the old school of influence and status quo. Younger covenants of mixed Houses feel stiffled by the Domus Magi and the Houses. They have new ideas, grand schemes, and want to get out from under the thumb of 'old system'.
For me, this perspective is a source of constant conflict and stories in my campaign. Variants of this view occur through out numerous campaigns and it seems to me over reaching to suggest the houses should be dropped all together. Besides, I love True Lineages and must have the other books!
Wow. In the games I've seen Houses were a huge part of character identity, to the point where if you knew someone's house often you knew all you needed to know about them... even PC's.
My big problem with Houses had been how stereotypical their Members became. Now I like to think of them as mini-colleges. You know, like someone says he went to M.I.T. It's possible you know all you need to know about him by that. But I've also met some M.I.T. grads who majored in creative writing. Similarly, just because Flambeu are known for their Ignem or Perdo, doesn't mean there isn't some who take a strong interest in Cr/Re Terram.
(Which is one of the reasons I love the Terram Quernicus in True Lineages.)
Part of the question of how does a lineage survive in a multi-house covenant has a lot to do with the resources of a covenant. I've seen one game where there were lots of deals to get an apprentice trained by specialists living at the covenant. With 5th ed. there's is very little reason why a magus would need to ask someone else's help.
I agree. I don't want to sound condesending, but I feel people with a college education are more aware of the influence schools of thought because like it or not they've recieved "House" training.
Consider a classic TV conflict, Doctor v. Surgeon. The Doctor wants to use pills to heal his patient, the Surgeon wants to cut them open. These attitudes are a direct result of their training, their "House" teachings.
My fields of education are Psychology and Sociology. Freud and Jung have a strong presence in Psychology, and even if people feel these founders have antiquated methods, these founders still have a strong influence of the subject of psychology and thier teachings have entered the lexicon of the general public.
I have a better example. Emile Durkheim is one of the founders of Sociology, he lived from 1858-1917. One of my most influential Professors was taught by a student of Emile Durkheim. Consider that it's the 21st Century and I am two generations removed from a Founder of a Social Science. While I don't adhere to all the teachings of Durkheim I must admit that his views on education have influenced my own.
Teachers not only instruct people in ways of thinking, they shape more sublte things, such as the questions you ask, how you answer them, sometimes even the way you write. For instance I had a strick Skinner/Behaviorist Prof for grad work and he absolutely destroyed the possiblity of 'fluff' in my papers. Years later I can still see his influence on my writing style.
Founders represent the passing of knowledge from one generation to the next and even if that Founder is long dead, or the students are dispersed over a wide area, a Founder/teacher can influence the training of a student. Because of this, it's reasonable and necessary to detail lineage and house influence when playing an educated character (a magus).
Well, if you take them as character archetypes, most certainly, but they are much more than that. No two magi from one single house should look alike. And it's very nice to have serveral different and possibly conflicting levels of loyalty for characters : covenant, house, master, tribunal, mystery...
In our Rhine saga we've got
*A Trianomae magus from northern Iberia
*A Bjornaer from the Baltic
*A Jerbiton from Bavaria
*A Flambeau hoplite from central Germany
Quite an eclectic group of peregrinatores, following GotF ideas
A Baltic Bjornaer, that's really apropriate as those areas are home to the last tribes of heathen peolpe in Europe.
The group seemed like a very interesting mix aswell.
Our first AM saga, alooong time ago... lasting several real years...
The GM played as a Criamon, and some years later his pater joined, usually never in adventures (helped with visions and the such)
2 Tytalus (One ... a weird, obscure and mysterious personality, the other always fighting to control the covenant just for the fun of it)
1 Flambeau (kill em all style, a lot of fun of course)
2 Merinita (usual faerie friend ; the other died very young, then came back as a Flambeau, perhaps to improve his survivavility)
1 Verditius (selfish personality)
I forgot about another "Bonisagus" mage. He was a "magic theory" focused,( on theory ), but forgot about his lineage and turned very quickly into a close combat total killer mage-knight.
A player played as a Bjornaer a few sessions, could not go on and just leaved the covenant.
After some time, some tremere NPC joined the covenant as full rank sodalis, obviously in order to control the covenant.
1x Bonisagius (Artist, Vim Specialist)
1x Criamon (Weapon Smith, Terram Specialist)
1x Ex Miscellanea (Bard, Generalist)
1x Flambeau (Weapon Specialist, Auram/Terram Specialist)
2x Jerbiton (One Healer (Creo Corpus specialist), the other one is a Philosopher (Intelligo Specialist)
1x Mecere (Gifted) (Focused on Magical Animal training and breeding)
1x Tremere (Necromancer)
In the Campaign where I play:
1x Bonisagius (archeaologist, Aquam/Auram Specialist)
1x Diedne ((posing as a Jerbiton) Animal, Herbam and Mentem peaks)
1x Flambeau (Faerie Blooded, Muto/rego Ignem),
1x Jerbiton, (Archeaologist, Focuses on techniques)
1x Guernicus (Intelligo, Mentem/Terram) Trying to master Hermetic Law)
I have garnered a disproportionate amount of Mercere magi in my saga over the years. Flambeau is always and ever popular (especially with the way I spice them up ). Ex-Miscellanea is common, but no one tradition has ever repeated. Lemme think. Verditius, Mercere Redcaps, Tremere, and a few others have been used mor e than once. I think the only House to not yet show up is Criamon. I shall work on that
Seriouly Sphynx I don't see where you're going with this. It's much cooler to base a world were things are tuned to your game, where the other covenants exist to fit the needs of your story. If this means that your game is not compatible with anyone else's so be it. I use other people's games as examples only, especially since I play big story order shaking Europe wide games where the character's actions change everything..."
). Ex-Miscellanea is common, but no one tradition has ever repeated. Lemme think. Verditius, Mercere Redcaps, Tremere, and a few others have been used mor 
e than once. I think the only House to not yet show up is Criamon. I shall work on that