But a block of uranium doesn't just explode on its own. There's a precisely controlled explosion required, which may well be a whopper of a Finesse roll and/or a high level explosion spell (ReTe? ReAu? PeTe?). Conjure a block of enriched uranium and all you might get is radiation poisoning (which Magic Resistance doesn't block) and a quickly very hot piece of poisonous metal.
This sort of conversation is exactly the kind of thing I'd want to avoid in an AM game.
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No. I'm pointing out something that would be trivially discovered using hermetic magic if we use real physics.
Also, specifically, I was replying to
- sorry for not making that clear.
Obviously. But that was never Ars Magica's schtick.
If it was, we should start by removing the magic, surely?
Depending on what you mean by 'explode' :-/
Kinda. As I recall (and I openly admit I haven't touched the subject in years - my country has no nuclear weapons program), the trick is that we want to choose the time of the detonation. Which means keeping significant-but-sub-critical blocks of fissionable material apart, and then bringing them into contact and making them "stick", rather than deform and break apart.
There was probably also a pressure requirement, but as mentioned, that lecture was years ago.
If you say so.
Part of the point I was trying to make. :-/
I too favour keeping the medieval paradigm since the alternative requires overhauling the magic system on the basis of more modern scientific understanding - at the very least, Imaginem, Animal, and Corpus would necessitate serious chances as would Creo and Muto since giving matter to platonic forms, or adding categories to said forms is impossible if those forms don't exist.
Also, I'm not sure it would necessarily solve any of the problems cited since I'm not sure there's actually much more unanimity in the scientific community today than there was in ME. At the very least, we'll wind up trading 'A fairy did it' for the functionally equivalent 'Hydrogen bonds'.
I feel the need to address this. Is not being authentically medieval an important part of Ars Magica's shtick? It's not the whole thing, surely, but even the monsters and magic are based on concepts people explicitly believed to be true during that time period. Adding medieval magical practices may make it less realistic, in exactly the same way that making the physics different from our world does, but it could be argued that it makes it more medieval, not less, as reality conforms to what the people based their lives on assuming it conformed to; reality in Ars Magica serves to increase the legitimacy of medieval values and schools of thought. You could argue that it's less authentically medieval to have reality fit the perceptions of the people of the time, because it did not in fact do that in medieval Europe; my counterargument would be that people, and by extension their perceptions of reality, are the source of the medieval period (I mean, medieval societies don't spontaneously appear as part of nature) and therefore the closer to correct their findings on reality, the more medieval the world would be, simply for conforming to that reality.
That's my $0.02, anyway.
I'm not sure Platonic forms go away if you choose to use standard physics in Ars Magica. Platonic forms are effectively a 'supernatural' standard (i.e. it's a magical definition of perfect reality). If Platonic forms actually exist, they exist in the Magic Realm which has its own physics (much as any of the actual other Realms would). Kind of like how modern Christians don't limit the concept of God to Newtonian or even Non-Newtonian Physics. I agree that the lines between Corpus/Herbam/Animal can get blended, and Ignem would get weird (electromagnetic spectrum and molecular vibration!). Aquam, Auram and Terram might start blending too, but ultimately the divisions in Hermetic magic are arbitrary, given how other types of magic either don't differentiate between types of vis or can use several kinds for the same function (and Grigori Magic outright blends arts). Bonisagus decided to separate the arts in one way, and while magic might be able to discover actual physics, it doesn't have to conform to actual physics in the way it manipulates the world.
I like the medieval paradigm. It doesn't have to be perfectly exact, either - it's more a matter of flavor. Like having disease be caused by demons and unbalanced humours and such: more than just reflecting the medieval view, it creates a very foreign and fantastic world, which I think is cool. It also means we don't get to arguments like what happens if you create a block of uranium, which I definitely think is a bonus.
The thread has gone meta, officially.
Here's another problem - where in the core rules does it explicitly state that everything is in Medieval Paradigm?
From memory I think the core rules gives the advice that we should play whatever we like (turnip simulator, dragon-riders, etc). Medieval paradigm is a very useful default setting, but YSMV as much as you wish.
The point's been stated that flexibility and discussion is key in Ars and I think that is pivotal in deconstructing how obscure the game is initially. Medieval paradigm is just a more specific setting. A version based upon Kevin Cosna's Robin Hood might be your desire (ahem), but if another the troupe wants it, then off they go. Heck, add Transformers if the troupe wants to explore that setting/style. A group who likes a modern bent to reality and physics is fine. I see a medieval paradigm as an excellent baseline for the line, and that commonality in setting is needed to have a consistent approach to the material.
To bump an old conversation, the main issue 5e faces is that the art is not high enough caliber to excite prospective players and GMs enough. It is ok for the existing small and dedicated fan base.
Pathfinder, d&d 5e, Warhammer, and other big gaming companies have exceptional art.
There is also a bit of a chicken and an egg issue. The initial role playing games back in the day did not always have amazing art. Now in 2021? Practically every new game has great art. I don't see Ars as that competitive in that arena, the game books are targeted too closely at long term Ars Magica fans.
Studying the art at this link, I realized that it was more evocative to me than any art I've seen in the Ars Magica books in some time.
That should be fairly easy to test actually!
From what I've seen the Spanish books have some absolutely stunning high quality art and covers, far better than most of the D&D stuff I've seen in print.
Does anyone know if Ars magica much more popular in the Spanish speaking world than it is in the English Speaking?
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I read the whole thread after the necromancy was done. I think the above is the elephant in the room. AM is a bit more like the Witcher or Game of Thrones, with all it's horror and debauchery, while many other game are a bit more Lord of the Rings, with it's pretty fantasy world where sewerage does not exist.
I love the medieval physics. It's a nice point of difference. A bag of feathers will float to the ground slowly. Vermin spawning from rotten objects? Awesome. Milk going sour because of a mischievous fae creature. They are all a bit of fun.
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Witcher, Game of Thrones, and Warhammer are all massive properties, though. The Warhammer rpg in particular is really popular right now (and so were the previous editions). I don't think that sort of a setting is a barrier to popularity in itself.
On the other hand it being "real" history removes that comfortable degree of separation, so I could see any discomfort hitting closer to home because of that, in a sense.
The French books for 5e are pretty good art-wise as well. Are they making more of an impact? Inquiring minds want to know.
As for the art issue...this is a problem for fanzines and many indie games, as they don't have the budget for much art and have to furiously ration the good stuff. If you want to make an impact on roleplaying games, you are much better off studying illustration and drawing than creative writing, world-building, games studies, or coding.
Pity poor Cyberpunk V3 which had to make do with GI Joe and Barbie photographed in cyberpunk fashions. A decent edition of the game sunk by the art.
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I don't think it is a major problem, but a contributing issue is the sense of predestination- history ha already been written. Sure you can go into an alternate history based on what your group achieves, but at that point it sort of destroys the paradigm and begs the question of why it didn't happen sooner.
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French books publisher (Ludopathes) went bankrupt or failed, and as far as I know, existing books are out of stock (core rulebook, the 3 House books, Covenants, Calebais). So it seems the french translation of the game is not in a good place at the moment... They also published "Arles", which doesn't exist in english, but I don't have it and I heard mixed things about it from friends that do have it. It has 9 stories and some idea about playing at 3 historical periods.
One thing that occurs to me is that AM is so "obscure" in part because the plan for development has not sought to expand its customer base, to the point of nearly excluding people who are not part of the core customer base. Some people want balance between types of characters, want to play epic fighters or rogues, or want to play in other settings and the game developers have simply insisted that that is not the sort of game they are- so there are no rules for taking cover in combat, no attempts at developing niches for other roles, no allowance for other settings. The magic system is great, but in terms of any other roleplaying possibility it has essentially crippled itself.
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The predestination issue goes hand in hand with the need-a-degree-in-medieval-history reputation issue. That rep is overblown, but it exists.
I suspect a fun, adventurous, accessible adventure / series (probably with pregen characters) would help. Possibly with a Starter Set approach.
Good tie-in fiction might help, too.
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I've been a roleplayer for years - I've played Edge of the Empire, Age of Rebellion, Savage Worlds, GURPS, Pendragon, P&P, Masks, and numerous homebrew games. Ars Magica is by far the most labyrinthine of all the systems I've encountered. It requires a massive intellectual investment to fully understand the setting, the Order, the magic system, and the rules for character advancement. You have to keep meticulous notes and plan things way in advance; if you try to change your focus later in the narrative, you are at a serious disadvantage. The magic system is excellent, and you can get really creative with your spells and your items, but it takes a long, long time to get a return on your investment.
I also don't want to shy away from the discomfort the setting can engender in people who are LGBTQ and who have been traumatized by their experiences with religion. Playing in a world where Leviticus is The Truth™ and women were created to be man's helper is...not a great feeling. The Order lets you circumvent this to some degree (I play an openly gay character who worships a goddess, for instance), but like, it's clear that my character is "incorrect" based on the information in The Divine supplemental book. As a member of a minority religion in real life, I don't enjoy the Gary Stu vibe of the Dominion. Settings with fictional pantheons are much easier to deal with, in my opinion.
BUT. But. If you get the right group of people together, Ars offers tremendous flexibility in terms of character design and does a great job of rewarding creative thinking. Player imagination is a key mechanic and can lead to fantastically interesting outcomes. Strangeness is not just tolerated, it's encouraged. If you can dream it, you can do it - that's what I love about playing Ars. The collaborative element is great for making everyone feel like they had a hand in shaping the story, and having multiple storyguides helps prevent the kind of burnout that I've experienced as a lone GM. So yeah. I can see why it's not everyone's cup of tea (I've often joked with my friends that it's a game made specifically for pedants). But for the right crowd, it can provide years of unique and mentally stimulating gameplay that you won't find anywhere else.
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