Why no love for the Tremere?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
181

Wasnt aimed at you.

Heh, well i guess we know now. :stuck_out_tongue:

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!! :laughing:
Not quite there no...

I just noted i havent specified my location on this forum like i usually do...(well i also recall being asked where i was at on a forum where i HAD stated, so thats not always so foolproof as one would think)

You can find me oh i think its something like 61.3 N and 16.4 E.
Roughly a bit south and slightly east of the geographical center of Sweden. :wink:
So no, NOT Atlanta.

Exact same thing? No. Most certainly not.

Huh??? Its not the slightest about THAT... You´re really having problems understanding what i have already said.

Eh... Not really no because before 5E me personally havent seriously played later than 2E... I actually got my hands on 5E before 3E and 4E and only done some minor playtesting with those two editions(and stolen some modified ideas or rules from them).

Seems you ALSO have managed to completely fail in just reading what i´ve said, several times in different ways...

Again, guess why i´ve houseruled NOT that Diedne was innocent, NOR that the backlash from their anti-Diedne campaign destroyed Tremere?
Because wether or not i personally like Tremere, they´re still another option for a player, just as i made the Diedne, even if they´re looked at with general suspicion, likewise... That makes them fully PLAYABLE for anyone who wants to, rather than just for someone who can deal with the Dark Secret flaw or happens to have an overly nice SG.

:unamused:
If you think my opinion would change just becase of that, then you need a thorough brainwash.
Certainly it would make Tremere less confined in their powers, but that wouldnt change my opinion of the whole Diedne-extermination was handled.
If instead you say lets swap their starting "bonuses", then a Diedne would risk getting boring to play because the certamen focus really sucks, while the Tremere would still be severely confined by their setting, at least their magic bonus would be nice.
I would still have "brought back" house Diedne.

Maybe i should say this once again, i have barely played as Diedne at all, ever. Flambeau, Bonisagi, Ex Miscellanea and after that either Jerbiton, Verditius or Criamon are the ones i have played seriously. When im not playing as the opposition that is.

182

Sorry i didnt make myself clear... I agree fully with BOTH your above posts(except maybe that i dont think the same can be said about any magi or house, or more exactly, cant be said to the same degree). The house is often what makes a Tremere, and sometimes that can be good, but all too often it ends up being troublesome.

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Random comment:

The characterisation of the Tremere magus Octavian in the Light of Andorra Saga (viewforum.php?f=28) is really interesting - I think it's all dependent on how the SG and player interact.

Octavian is a Tremere Quaesitor.

Regards,

Lachie

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I apologize for this horrible act of necromancy, but I just felt a strong urge to note that this thread has represented for me since early in its lifespan the best and worst of internet forums. Godwin's Law hit it early, it includes all sorts of mud-slinging about the evils of religion in general, specific religions, the relative merits of particular ethnic groups. It does a wonderful job of expressing how much different people reading the same text can come away with drastically different beliefs about the things they read about. And it has some interesting (to me, at least) insights into the sort of thinking that informed the description of several houses in the 5th edition.

Since I've been reading over Against the Dark, I was reminded of this discussion of the Tremere, so, to attempt to salvage this necro, I'm curious: do any of the participants in this old discussion feel differently after reading Against the Dark? Did you skip buying it, because you knew it was mostly going to be about the Tremere, and you didn't care? Have the years changed anyone's opinions?

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No. I felt that the take on the Tremere presented in AtD was pretty much identical to how they were described in HoH: TL.

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Wow. I hadn't caught this thread before, I'm truly impressed with the polite words holding back hideous rage. I'd never realised people had such strong views on a barely mentioned house! (Diedne, I mean)

Original Forum post: In the three Ars games I've played in and run, we've never had a Tremere PC. But I personally would have no major issue with them. Interestingly, one of the two pagans in our group professes hate of the Tremere way, and any Tremere who follows the house 'line'. He also has the Diedne virtue. I think that if anyone was to play them, it would be my players who in themselves are a bit more 'mainstream'.

I think subconciously, Tremere represent Authority, both in its positive and negative stances. Certain types of people view authority different ways. Certainly a LOT of the posters here appear to see Tremere as a giant single minded entity without any member showing thought for themselves. In other games and fantasy media, Authority is almost always bad and peace loving nature types always good. I think people often put their portrayal of that 20th century sentiment upon the Tremere.

The main, singular thing is this: Tremere can occasionally get told what to do. People don't want to get told what to do. Even if one day they get to tell others what to do.

Sometimes I think thats a bit of a waste. It doesn't allow for a Tremere to do 'good' things. I wonder if some of the posters who dislike Tremere so intensely have them as secretive political manipulators whenever they show up in a game, without room for change.

ATD: I have a lot of reservations about the Expanded Tremere House Guidebook. I like the theme and style of the book, and think its a high quality book. But again.. the book represents Tremere as far too unified IMHO. I work in and around government agencies in my mundane life, and I've never seen THE MAN work to its various agendas without a hell of a lot of backroom politics, vicious gossip, broken friendships and intrigue.

ATD has lots of great political stories suggested. .. but no fair representation of the fact that Tremere is made up of individuals with different goals. I would have liked them to show that the Prima is not the ultimate authority, even if on paper she is.

Personally I treat the Tremere guidelines as a 'What the Tremere want everyone to think.'. IMS, the Prima is indeed the authority - but only so far as her Exarchs, and in turn their Tribunes, and in turn their footsoldiers let her. Tremere deeply value their house and their family. But families squabble all the time, and too much crushing of independance might create footsoldiers, but it won't create the leaders of a new tomorrow. When I deal with Tremere, I usually assume that the house spends most of its time helping its members to help themselves, help other magi, and help the order - and they do it with a light hand, because Tremere tried it with the iron fist and that didn't work.

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187

RPGs in the 90s (3rd edition, I'm looking at you) had a huge anti-authoritarian undertone. Rebel against the Man was 'in.' Comic books had spikes and leather.

We're past that now, and there is something of a slight backlash against the 90s. Being a responsible citizen of the world is 'in' now - for all that entails. Sometimes that means supporting the Man, not necessarily fighting him. Of course, many of us are aging gamers now (some more aging than others) and we still have opinions formed from those 90s RPG sessions. :slight_smile:

I agree that the Tremere of ATD feel a bit too organised. I can envision the Transylvanian tribunal being a hotbed of politics, just a different flavour of pole itics than the rest of the Order is used to.

What I definitely can't see is a young Tremere magi without their sigil being shafted by the Tremere vote in tribunal. Just because they can't vote themselves doesn't mean the House doesn't view their young member as a valuable asset. Screwing them over doesn't help them develop, and thus doesn't help the House. If the Tremere vote is going to screw over a young Tremere magus' covenant, that magus will probably be moved to safety first.

In fact, I highly suspect that for a very junior Tremere magus, their early seasons of service will be things like: Go and serve the House by learning Rego from this senior Tremere magus!

What this does is accelerates their early growth, in exchange for giving up seasons being the teacher later. Having competent members is a good thing for any organisation, so staff training will feature in to this.

Of course, young and rebellious magi will often perceive certain decisions as being 'against them' even when they aren't. Its the privilege of youth.

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I do get your point, but my counterpoint is that House Tremere in Transylvania has fewer magi than my library service has staff. Way fewer. Way, way, way fewer. Also, dragons have never tried to eat us.

I think the backroom politics comes from a modern sense of self. I can see it being there, sure, but in such a small group, with such a wide rang of ages and therefore a powerful mage only has a handful of peers. They also have basically unlimited time, and duelling-taken-seriously, to sort out a pecking order.

So I don't see it as like a modern beauracracy, although I do see the broader point.

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189

First, the easy thing: I can't see myself playing a Tremere in 5th because of the focus. I love magical foci, and most of my magi have one.

Then...I 'm a little illogical on this.
IRL, I'm wary of authority, the army, politicians (Not that, too, I'm wary of "rugged individuals", which I see as a little sociopathic)... In game, I love the Tremere.
I love their organisation, their "military" mindset and specialisation, I see them as supporting each other, and working together towards what the house as a whole perceives to be the common good. The Primus leads, but for House Tremere and the Order, not for him, and a "bad" primus can be deposed. In short, I see them not unlike what authority should be, instead of what it is. Of course, IRL, this would crumble, but in game, the challenges they face and faced plus the high lifespan of magi plus their low numbers make it work.

Not that this doesn't mean they can't be wrong, mind you. They might decide that #insert evil plan# is the thing to do, but this'll be because they, as a group, think it's for the house and the order's good, not because their primus has dreams of world domination (that's Tremere himself, and the house has grown since them).

And here I am, posting with work to do. Well done................................

190

I never played a Tremere until the last 2 years. I blame 3rd and 4th edition bias which made them villains. This thread got me to read and try them out and I find that I really like them. Against the Dark just adds more background and ideas for them. I find them quite playable. Now if we could just get a thread to help with playing a Criamon :stuck_out_tongue:

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Something that's been itching at me lately is that, to me, the Tremere in 5th ed feel very similar to the Scorpion Clan in L5R. Yet, in the L5R circles in which I've run, the Scorpion Clan has had a sort of blend of "love" and hate, with most people at least agreeing on "cool". In AM 5th, I feel like the Tremere have mostly inspired hate, with much less consensus on "cool". And I keep wondering why that is.

The best reason I've been able to come up with so far is that L5R is predicated on a pseudo-feudal-eastern notion of bushido and honor, where all players are cogs in machines, even if they are heroic cogs in machines. Whereas, in AM, the nature of the powerful magus figure, combined with a lot of high fantasy tropes that inform us, lead us to the more modern narrative structure involving the hero individual. It's an interesting sort of blend of cultural touchstones, really, and I find it intriguing that all one really has to do with players is move from Western Feudal to Eastern Feudal to get them to let go of a lot of that "I am a free man" baggage and accept the notion that being a special thread in a large tapestry can be a desirable goal.

Of course, because I came across L5R before I came across AM 5th ed, the Scorpion Clan became part of my metaphor for House Tremere... does anyone else have enough knowledge of the L5R universe to comment? I'm always curious if I'm the only one to see the similarities...

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They are a good comparison. They are willing to take hits to their honor for the betterment of the Empire. The difference is that the Tremere want everyone in the order to operate like they do for the betterment of all.

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Scorpions are clever and sneaky; many people enjoy that. Scorpions in the sourcebooks often get the best lines. In many ways, a Scorpion in L5R is the odd man out, any players often like that. An L5R character who is extremely individuated from the norm is either a Dragon or Scorpion. Obedience is important among the Scorpion, but to a player that obedience is getting sent on a James Bond mission (if you fail, the clan will disavow any knowledge of your actions...) or something else.

Tremere are more interesting than before, but while they have some things in common with Scorpions they don't act the same way.

A Scorpion might think like a Tremere but acts more like a Tytalus...

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While the other answers above have some truth to them, I think the biggest factor is PR. The Scorpion Clan has a great deal of art supporting it, and it is much easier for people to get behind something being 'cool' if there's some nice visualisation to go with it. Everything from lonely mountain castles to Scorpion samurai posing looking mean to female Scorpion members posing looking mean and sexy. These kinds of things have a monster impact on people's perceptions, and will colour their opinions as they then read the material.

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Thats an interesting point also.

I could actually see House Tremere commissioning artworks representing themselves awesomely, as well as in-game art (Though with Ars that is somewhat lacking.)

As a comparison, in WH40K the Space Marines are neutered roid raging intolerant fanatics 99% of the time. Yet they are treated as pretty cool, and obviously super popular amongst the fans of that setting.

Amusing what a bit of art can do.

paradoxplace.com/Perspective ... i_Magi.htm

Scroll down to the image for Magi Balthazar and his epic hat :smiley:.

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From L5R terms, the Scorpions managed to get themselves exiled twice over schemes to save the empire that only made things worse. Far more despicably, they caused the Akodo family to lose its name, which as someone whose first L5R character was an Akodo I find immensely annoying. As a GM, I've discovered lots of people want to play Scorpions (and use Sincerity to play lip service to honour), Dragons (and be mystics) or super-honourable types like Cranes and Lions. People seem to like the extremes.

Back to Ars - to be fair, 3rd ed does make them seem like enemies out to crush people. In all editions, their centralised planning and elaborate intrigues make them ideal ways to involve players in plots far bigger than their local concerns, so most players will have had an experience where House Tremere tries to manipulate them into a giant scheme, or forces them to react to a giant scheme to take over their tribunal. In my current game, we are annoyed that the Tremere are claiming credit for everything our Flambeau and Verditius have achieved, saying they set it all in motion.

In 5th at least we have a good story to explain why the Tremere are like they are - the apprentices of Guorna were sorely abused, and Tytalus tried to shield the others. Tytalus' house grew to believe that harsh treatment toughens you up and so they treat apprentices harshly and seek out tough opponents. Tremere see that teamwork took down Guorna, and teamwork allowed Tremera and Trianoma to deal with the witches of Thessaly. They also know that Tremere failed in his attempt to take over, so they know they have to play the long game and not overtly try to take over the world. Therefore, the Tremere may have to suck up ridiculous requests from above, but they know that they will get aid when they need it, and in time their schemes will be supported. The Tremere in 5th are more sympathetic than previous editions.

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3rd edition was also at a time when a lot of games had a very adolescent view of the world. Teens and young adults have a tendancy to view any authority with contempt or hostility - wanting to take on the world but not being in the position to do it. In the 90s RPGs in general were a very teen/young adult product. Now, 15 years on, the demographic has shifted and so too have the themes.

I can totally see Tremere magi commissioning works of art about themselves - and, in fact, any magus who is concerned with their public image. Marketing and PR aren't new concepts, even if they weren't codified or labelled in the same way. Powerful people commission portraits of themselves, or statues to commemorate their achievements. Even books are a form of self-aggrandisement - and if image weren't a concern we wouldn't see (or have rules for) vain texts.

I can easily see Tremere fiction (with supporting images) being circulated that shows off how awesome the Tremere are - both to young Tremere magi and to others. This gives me an idea for a character: the free-expression Tremere author/illustrator. :slight_smile:

Outside of the in-game art consideration, do we have a fan-art place for people to share their own ars magica / ars magica inspired artworks? there are many talented people out there who will gladly offer their content for free if its for something they believe in. there's a very good reason why Blizzard make sure fan art, stories and the like are prominently displayed on their website.

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Very true.

Flambeau I can see, but all the verditius have achieved? Or is it the local Verditius character?

And much less bend on world domination.

I like 'em in this edition. Very much so.

Enough so that I get annoyed every time I'm reminded of those silly 3rd ed -ish tossers in Black Thorn

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David Brin talks about this a bit here: locusmag.com/Perspectives/20 ... -as-fools/

His point is that American tropes demand that society be filled with idiots, and organisations be evil, because otherwise the single man acting as hero makes no sense.

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The Tremere do have a laureate, for suitable propaganda poems. 8)