Why Santiago should regret introducing timetravel to Ars

Santiago and Tenebrous, please stop reading now. This contains spoilers.

(please scroll down past the spoilers, unless you're Santiago or Tenebrous)

Tenebrous, I said no!

And Santiago yes I deliberately made the title something you'd want to read, but couldn't :stuck_out_tongue:

In a game GM'd by Santiago, timetravel was introduced. And yes, those of you angrily throwing your rulebooks at the screen in protest should rest assured Tenebrous felt likewise. Ryce however saw an opportunity to exploit the situation.

Santiago wasn't quite as blatant in his abuse of the rules as I make it sound, he took the Criamon Path of.. something.. 'Seeming' maybe, which allows you to summon people from the past, threw in a botch, a final twilight, and an unfortunate series of events, which meant that a number of people got summoned from the past, and some from the future.

He had contacted us out of game a few months earlier and said "out of interest, who's your favourite historic character?" which is a leading question if ever I heard one. I (of course) chose Ryce. With the result that Ryce, along with several other actual historic people were summoned into the game by the botching Criamon. (One of the other people summoned was Jesus. That'll be relevant later).

The Ryce who got summoned was Ryce from 3 seasons in the future (We'll call him Ryce1). Which in effect means that Ryce1 lives through spring, summer & autumn 1095, then gets summoned back and relives spring & summer alongside himself (Ryce2) who is living those two seasons for the first time. At the end of summer, Ryce 1 returns to his own time (end of autumn).

So for spring & summer, there are 2 Ryces, one of whom has lived those 2 seasons before, but 1 of whom is living it for the first time, but (importantly) knows he's going to end up living it again.

So, Ryce1 spends his 2 seasons working with Ryce2 on an item of uber power, at the end of summer he hands it to Ryce2, and says "take this back in time with you, and hand it to the younger version of yourself you meet there (Ryce3)". Ryce 2 does that, spends the 2 seasons working with Ryce3 on the item, and gives him the same instructions for Ryce 4. Ryce 5, Ryce6, Ryce 7.. Ryce999,999, Ryce1,000,000.. and so on. This item has had millions of seasons of work gone into it, but it's only actually taken Ryce two seasons to make.

The drawback is of course that the item never comes out of the 2 season loop, so it might be the most powerful item in the world, but it always gets sent back in time, as Ryce after Ryce after Ryce go through the same decision making process. "Should I keep it? no, I'll pass it along".

Except that, every season the item gets more powerful, so it's a greater temptation for each Ryce to decide "I want to be the Ryce to benefit from this item, I'll not hand it on, I'll use it to conquer the world". So at some point, some Ryce with a high number will break the cycle, and emerge with the powerful item.

Which of course won't affect our game, other than in a St Trinnians days adventure (weird adventures generally occur during the festivities of Saint Trinnian), a travelling regio is likely to encompass our heroes, and plunge them into the alternate world where Ryce is uber. (I mean of course more uber). Until they find a way to escape, maybe defeating uber Ryce in the process.

So, here's (finally) what I wanted to ask.. if you had all those millions of seasons of work to go into an item (and vis isn't an issue as you're using vis, then going back in time to before you've used it, and using it again), what item would you make?

Ryces lab total will be a little over 100 for any combination of arts & techniques (Ryce has a high leadership score, a second Ryce to assist as well as a few dedicated lab monkeys). So any effect short of a ritual can be put into an item within 1 season.

He could either look at making one huge capacity device, or a huge load of one single season (I can't remember the proper term) items which don't need opening, and then wear them almost as a charm bracelet. Possibly do a combination of the two, some nice spells with huge penetration to take down any pesky wizards who don't like his world domination plans, as well as one item for every spell in the book, and any others he can think of.

I'm hoping for some imaginative/funny/flamboyant ideas. I know that for an actual player character, any GM out there would rule against this working, but this is for an npc badguy who's more of an illustration of where Ryce would go if he had the power, than of a serious attempt to maintain game balance.

I mentioned earlier that Jesus being one of the people summoned would be relevant later on. Here's where it's relevant. In the original timeline, we sent Jesus and all the other people back home after just one season, Ryce only stayed for longer because he had his plan, and refused to go home (I got punished with a huge amount of warping points for that!). And in every cycle of the two seasons since then, Jesus & co were sent home unharmed. Until, the cycle where temptation finally gets too much for Ryce. During that cycle, Ryce chops off Jesus's hand before sending him home. (in this timeline all imagery of Jesus shows will then show him as having only one hand, and I'm sure there'll be a parable about it). Ryce will then, using a demonic ritual he learned earlier in our actual game (where he has resisted the temptation to use it), replace his own hand with Jesus's. He does this on the basis that if owning a bone from a saint gives you some magic resistance, having Jesus's still living hand as your own will give far more magic resistance than he could ever hope to gain through parma alone. Which will always be handy when it comes to disbanding the Order of Hermes for their continued opposition to him being king of all the world.

Turns out Tenebrous might have been right, Santiago will end up regretting introducing timetravel to Ars, and to Ryce :wink:

Well, IMO either the hand should not attach (or stay attached) or far worse, Ryce (whatever number) is instantly vaporized by God as soon as Jesus' hand touches his flesh (as I would imagine it doing in a mythical Europe to characters as evil as Ryce).

Santiago should have killed Ryce long ago, before it was too late (which, sadly, it now is)...

Or.... make the item turn back to its component materials when it teleports back in time. over and over again.

You still get Rice XXX getting a load of XP in lab activities, so he can eventually reach a thousand in magic theory (or a million, or 20 billion....) so that wouldn't matter, but the item will still need to be made in 2 seasons maximum.

So the question is: what would you make with a limiteless lab total?

In my case I would enchant Mythic Europe as a composite item at my command. :stuck_out_tongue:

Chopping out jesus' hand should be not kosher here. For a start, because Jesus is in heaven and hermetic magic cannot affect it, no matter how big the botch. But if you want to try to harm jesus, you get incinerated immediately IMS. Just a smallish thing with some figures having game stats being totally stupid IMO.



You mean, you're not getting more warping points every time around? There definitely is something wrong. :smiley:

God help you with that. :wink:

I think Jesus is just messing with Ryce to teach him a lesson :wink:

Yeah, likely it would turn out that the hand is just a novelty joke item Jesus picked up on the outer rim of the milky way on his way to his rendezvous with destiny on Earth. :wink:

I don't think Ryce could really take off the hand of Jesus unless it was God's will. In the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas, it says:

"After that He (the child Jesus) was again passing through the village; and a boy ran up against Him, and struck His shoulder. And Jesus was angry, and said to him: Thou shalt not go back the way thou camest. And immediately he fell down dead."

This was just from a bump. Imagine an amputation. Maybe Ryce is supposed to have the hand, something like a Judas destined to do evil to accomplish a greater good. Or maybe he dissolves into dust. However, I think the hand and he diabolic ritual would be incompatiable and again averything blows up.

Isn't there some faerie dragon god on the forum that can set things right? :unamused:

What if the Jesus is actually a Powerful Deceiving demon in disguise? The demons have been trying to tempt him?

-----------Bible Quote ---------------------
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=9;

Sadly not, although there are an infinte number of seasons spent in the lab, each Ryce only gets 4 of those seasons, the 2 he originally lived, and then the two when he went back in time. The only constant across all the infinate seasons is the item which gets handed down from Ryce to Ryce

In this case Jesus was summoned from the past. From his days on Earth before he died and went to Heaven.

And maybe you're right, he shouldn't be here, but the GM brought him here, so in this case, he is.

But, as most people here have pointed out, Ryce wouldn't get away with chopping off Jesus's hand and using it himself. I was getting distracted by the fact that the GM's version of Jesus was just a nice man, slightly confused about being summoned to the future, not really understanding any of it, and happy to do some carpentry for us whilst we worked out how to get him home. That seems like a man Ryce could manipulate. Of course now I think about it, the awesome power of Jesus, especially in Mythic Europe would make such a thing impossible. Forget the Jesus's hand thing, the question about the item remains tho.

Well.. yes I am getting warped each time around, but each Ryce only travels back in time once. SO there are an infinite number of warped Ryces, because it keeps happening, but each Ryce only gets warped once.

Ooh I like your thinking..

I take it back :wink:

pfft Santiago has never been able to take Ryce. And I feel safe saying that as I've banned Santiago from reading this thread :wink:

I'd just like to point out that the item is getting Warping Points too. I imagine this could cause all sorts of interesting things to happen. For example, perhaps there are invested effects that the last iteration of the magus knows nothing about. Or perhaps the triggers for some of them have changed?

Except if that logic is followed, mr Ryce gets back and becomes himself in just ONE place, not a 1st and 2nd edition... Ie if the materials behave one way, the person will behave the same.

What about aging then?
And frankly, if he goes back to the same time over and over, there will either be everyone at once there, or just the original, depending on the physics you use.

Phah, lack of vision... The world is in your pocket, quite possibly literally. :stuck_out_tongue:

That was sort of my initial guess as well. Kabooom!

Doesnt work, either they all go to the same time, or they dont.
Otherwise you´re introducing the multiverse idea in an age where it most certainly doesnt belong.
I say the idea is screwed... :frowning:

I agree. The only sensible interpretation is that Ryce is in a time loop, unable to change the past. He will experience the exact same set of events as both young and old Ryce. The good news is, you get to keep the item at the end of the time loop (unless the item is itself a part of the loop, which would just be to confusing). The awesome part of this is that, in order to maintain a coherent story, the SG cannot cause anything to happen that in retrospect you would chose to change, because then older Ryce would change that event. Since that is a contradiction (events cannot be changed and events would be changed) the SG has to clear everything Ryce would experience with you ahead of time.

Just my two cents.

Do you honestly think that would stop me? I'd draw inspiration from the "Adjuration of the Astral Hound" from Living Lore... :smiling_imp:

And you would cause a Paradox in ME? :stuck_out_tongue: In fact,t hat is one of the best bits of Living Lore IMO. I really liked that daimon.



First thing that comes to mind about his item: What was his MT when he opened it? The amount of things he can put in it, are limited by THAT.

As for Jesus' hand.... :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: ..Ahem..
He just put the noose over his own head...

The hand brings on feelings of sorrow, anguish, thoughts of repentance, for all the things he has done wrong. The desire to repent his sins and (join an Order/ go on Crusade/Build Churches/seek out the Holy nails etc) perform some Holy task, build daily (see Item attunement: Covet item for ideas). He gains Holy Warping points...Perhaps even Holy Magic...Angels and Saints seek him out to "help him' (Plagued by a Supernatural entity). Demons pull out the stops and attempt to gain the 'Hand' for its POWER...Faeries and Magical creatures may attempt to do the same... People will seek him out from the dreams they have...seeking the Hand of God. These people will gather around his Covenant and Bring a Divine Aura...and the Church. The Church will demand he join them and abandon his Evil ways...His magic fails when put to evil uses...
The list goes on and on...

And if he hasn't got Still Casting, he'd better look at initiating Holy Magic, otherwise his days as a spell-casting wizard are counted.

In fact, the hand might very well work at dispelling spells he casts if they're not in accordance with God's plan.