Wishlist: Ars Magica 6

Nothing special abut 1444. Just a random number with 4s :mrgreen:
I just have a desire for an ArMren style game.
The best years for Iberia, IMO, is the 11th century. Lots of fighting and cultural mixing. And El Cid :smiley:

Totally agreed.

AM1000+/- gets you that, btw. It's also a great time for Constantinople, England....

Totally agreed.

AM1000+/- gets you that, btw. It's also a great time for Constantinople, England....
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Thirded. (Is that a word?)

It's also a great time for Cairo, Sicily...lots of places. Plus there are still Vikings around and if you play in Western Europe the old-style isolated almost monastic covenants fit in much better than they do in 1220.

How would anyone feel about an alternate history AM? Say one where the battle of Frigidus went the other direction?

Warning: Shameless Plug

The next issue of Sub Rosa goes to the years 550, 865, 1050, and 1470 to provide settings for Ars Magica outside of the core 1220 starting year.

Look here: Losing Mythic Europe .

Cheers

I thought about another way to go at the Divine Realm that you maybe might find more interesting, silveroak. Let me propose an alternate mechanic for the Divine Realm.

Imagine that the Divine Realm is not the expression of God's divine nature, but rather the expression of the gods' divine natures.

What I mean is, let's imagine the Divine Realm comes from the divine nature of any god, not just the Christian one. The old gods of yonder had divine auras, not faerie ones. The Olympians, the Nordic deities, the Babylonian gods, the whole pantheon of old Egypt, they all produced divine auras, and their priests called upon divine powers.

Now as people drifted into Christianity during the last thousand years, they started to abandon the old gods they used to worship. Those gods still exist in the Divine Realm, and their power is still Divine. But their presence in the mundane world has slowly disappeared, replaced by the Christian God. As their presence in the mundane world has withdrawn, Faeries have stepped in, eager to take the vitality derived from playing out their roles, much like they've taken on other roles that were not originally Faerie to harvest vitality. The old, Divine gods still exist, in the Divine Realm, but what you usually encounter in the modern (13C) world is usually just Faerie impersonators.

Thus, cults that have survived the ages, keeping true to their original gods, would have Divine powers, and use the Divine Power row from the realm interaction table, effectively trumping Infernal, Magic and Faerie, as should be. Because they wield the power of the true gods. Other, more recent cults, have just been duped by Faeries, effectively worshippinh Faerie False Gods that are not, in fact, the actual gods they pretend to be. Much like the Infernal False Gods from canon.

The game world would be much like it is in canon, with Divine auras mostly being aligned to the three Abrahamic religions, but in some ancient workship places you might still find Divine auras related to the ancient gods, if their worship had somehow managed to survive the onslaught of Christianity.

The true old religions would become something similar to Ancient Magic, long-lost secrets that could somehow be unearthed from the sands of time or have survived in fringe areas (fringe only relative to the main setting, of course).

It would also explain why the same God could be on the side of Judaism, Christianity and Islam at the same time, helping each one against each other. They would in fact not be the same God, but three different ones, just all of them under the jurisdiction of the Divine Realm as they are all divine. Just like the Roman Gods, for example.

I think this could be a really fun setting premise, and it wouldn't change things much for most of the game.

Just an idea. :slight_smile:

And let me add that I'm sorry if I offended you. It was never my intention to do so, nor did I intend to make you feel bad or belittle you or your beliefs. :frowning:

Yeah, that pretty much covers 95% of what I've heard about ArM3: "True Reason" and "too many demons!".

... that's probably because that was 95% of how it was different from 2nd edition. well, 85% maybe.

The one thing I would add to your model, Yirkash, is that when a divine aura fades it leaves behind a magic aura- a residue of the wonder and mystery of the religion. I'm also trying to work in how magical versions of the Gods could appear, and of course there is a lot of other details where reality has been defined by the Christian faith (age of the world, Adamic as the First Language, etc...) I had even come up with an idea that the desecration of old Pagan temples unleashed hordes of demons as many of their divine relics and auras were corrupted by marauding Christians (I say marauding, but often times they were legally appointed authorities sacking the old temples...)

So, I take it that you have a clear idea of what Ars Magica would look like if the Line Editor were a practising pagan? Less power for Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, more power for Jupiter and Thor? It's not an implausible assumption.

The problem, though, is that I am a practising pagan. (Shinto, specifically.) ArM5 is what Ars Magica looks like if the Line Editor is a practising pagan.

The game is not supposed to be a model of what I think the world is like (I don't believe Aristotelian physics, either), nor of what I would like the world to be like (far too sexist and generally oppressive). It is supposed to be an interesting and entertaining game setting, using medieval Europe as a background. If you do not find aspects of that setting entertaining, by all means change them in your saga; it's a game, it is supposed to be fun.

Yes, it is supposed to be fun.
The heavy handed level of Christian doctrine guiding the design of the world detracts from that fun, at least for people I know.
In fact my table top group ha elected to stop playing Ars Magica, and this was a factor.
I will accept your word for your practice of Shinto, it does not make the game any more fun.
All I am saying is that if there is another edition it should be designed to be more inclusive of differing cosmologies guiding the possibility of play.

I certainly understand this.

The problem for me is that a setting that is not infused with, pervaded by, saturated with and otherwise overwhelmingly adhering to Christianity is utterly unrelated to real medieval Europe, and therefore makes for a poor Mythic Europe. It's not that I want everyone to be a good Christian, or even most people, but Christianity is a large part of the context. Medieval Europe without a dominant Christian perspective is like Star Wars without the Force.

I'm not a Christian. I'm not a Christian apologist. Am not and have never been. No, no.

Reese's Peanut Butter Cups are yummy, and lettuce is much less yummy, but a salad that substitutes the latter with the former is not a salad.

Heh, Ars treads a fine line with its religious treatment. You know what is the most daring part of Ars? It actually (loosely) follows dogma. It doesn't try to be all hip and counter culture. I can't think of another game that actually tries to run various religions "strait", as Ars does. It doesn't succeed all the time, but hey, it gives a good try at the whole deal.

My previous game involved a devout (Charismatic) Catholic, several pagans, two athiests and a bunch of uncaring lapsed Christian agnostics. I think the players appreciated that one priest could be an antagonist and the next one a perfectly holy man, and the next just a w*nker with pretensions to academic intelligence. I think it's probably more about not rubbing the DIVINE POWAH into the faces of the players :smiley:.

Agreed. I'm sorry Silver Oak feels excluded... But you read any medieval history book and it is abundantly clear that the church had such an incredibly dominant influence in the day to day life of basically everyone back then. Yes - Paganism existed in various forms and old folk rites... But it was in no way influential enough to warrant watering down Ars Magica's portrayal of Christianity.

And yes - I also agree like the fact that Ars MAgica plays Christianity straight without historical whitewashing, politically correct guilt trips, and pretending the past was way more egalitarian than it actually was.

You know that you can play basic ArM5 adapted to the cosmology you desire? Just adapt the realm interaction table on ArM5 p. 183 and some flavor text in its Realms chapter to your desires and start over.
Of course this means, that you will not play in a Mythic Europe based of the Middle Ages of 1220 any more, but it looks like you do not care. So the background and RoP books, and most adventures, are not for you - but this would be the same in any Ars with modular cosmology.
Playing in a Mythic Europe based on history requires some suspension of disbelief, which can't be reached without assuming some intellectual distance to all the beliefs expressed in the game world, both those 'winning' and those 'losing'. The ArM5 realms form a rather abstract game construct to be used by troupes and stroryguides, not a player character's instruction for use of the game world.

I myself currently play in the same campaign (currently in 1224):
(1) a magus who is a Pythagorean Christian, trying to live by Plato's works in a Christian world,
(2) a Sorbian Redcap who is a pious and ardent Pagan, trying to subvert local devotion to saints and particular to the Virgin into an immanent cult,
(3) a compassionate Franciscan preacher and Custos (in terms of his Order), who found the people in his Custodia to be most in need of working hospitals.
Currently the Redcap starts to see the immanent aspect of Franciscan devotion as an asset for his planned subbversion. The Custos needs any help he can get for his hospitals, and the covenant has an excellent Greek encyclopedia on Medicine. So the magus wonders whether Franciscans interested in Classical Greek books might in the end educate their Order, and help him educate the Order of Hermes.
Is anybody of these right? I don't know. Can they somehow work together in a covenant? For now they sure do.

Cheers

There is a lot more to it than realm interaction. When ever aspect of reality has been defined by going to Christian dogma and liturgy as the first source for how the world works- when demons are defined by the 7 deadly sins, some of which are not remotely sins in other cosmologies (try to imagine a norseman who saw wrath as a deadly sin, or an ancient Roman being repulsed by lecherousness, gluttony or greed). The fact that nearly the entire book for the cradle and the crecent had to be dedicated to how Islam works in this world and it is one of the Abrahamic religions demonstrates just how strongly the bias runs through the whole system. Nobody has even discussed Judaism, which in medieval Europe would be like talking about the black experience in the post civil war south, only more so, and the existence of Jews is ubiquitous in Europe.
Yes Christianity is overwhelmingly dominant in Medieval Europe. That doesn't mean they have to be doctrinally right about everything in the game. Some alternative rules for people who want to play it differently is all I'm asking for, not throwing out all that is. Have demons of other cultures thrown in, discuss how divine and infernal auras work when other religions with different views on morality are in play. By the current rules Rome should have been a level 10 infernal aura before 300AD because of the orgies held every year as a religious observation of the Saturnalia.
And fundamentally, telling someone the way they feel about an issue like this is wrong does not address the issue. You are driving away players- I can't say how many- by adhering so strictly to the guidelines of Christianity to define the reality of the game. In my opinion the game should be actively more diverse in its worldview, more inclusive of those who want to play the system. Because IMO the rules for covenant management are great, the rules for magic are fantastic, but the setting detracts from the game, and makes it less fun. And telling people their opinions are wrong does not change their opinions, except for their opinion of you.

If I were to begin writing an Ars Magica 6th edition, I would begin with a statement like this:
"Ars Magica 6th Edition is set in Mythic Europe, which conforms, in most respects to the history of actual Europe in year xxxx, aside from the fact that it works the way people believed it did, or the way fantasy tend to view how it would have worked. It is a period where the laws of nature appear to conflict with each other, and people frequently held differing ideas about how things worked which did not always have internal consistency. Reflecting this many things can be true in Mythic Europe which seem to contradict each other. A peasant may go to church, swear by Jove, and celebrate pagan holidays and never conceive of the conflict between these. It is not a modern world, and different circumstaces may well play by differing rules."

Then build the rules from there instead of sticking to one doctrine or dogma.
Or keep going for more dogma, market to the fundamentalist, but I won't be playing if that is the way you go.

And lets keep in mind we are discussing a hypothetical 6th edition here... I am certainly not expecting a complete rewrite of everything in 5th that I a part of this issue. If we did that it would have to be 6th edition anyways...

I thought I told you that the RoP books were not for you, if you don't want to play in Mythic Europe.

TC&tC is a sourcebook for Mythic Europe. I quite see that you are not interested in that, but for the general interest see Losing Mythic Europe .

First we should define your issue. You desire, that

This implies a modularization of ArM rules, and then, perhaps, sourcebooks catering for different worlds and world views, one out of many applying to your saga. Look at Gurps for an example. This is not what the supporters of ArM desire, and are used to.

Then don't use the setting, but stick to ArM5 basic rules, Covenants, TMRE, MoH and the HoH-books. You wouldn't get any more from a modularized ArM either.

Cheers