Heh, Ars treads a fine line with its religious treatment. You know what is the most daring part of Ars? It actually (loosely) follows dogma. It doesn't try to be all hip and counter culture. I can't think of another game that actually tries to run various religions "strait", as Ars does. It doesn't succeed all the time, but hey, it gives a good try at the whole deal.
My previous game involved a devout (Charismatic) Catholic, several pagans, two athiests and a bunch of uncaring lapsed Christian agnostics. I think the players appreciated that one priest could be an antagonist and the next one a perfectly holy man, and the next just a w*nker with pretensions to academic intelligence. I think it's probably more about not rubbing the DIVINE POWAH into the faces of the players .
Agreed. I'm sorry Silver Oak feels excluded... But you read any medieval history book and it is abundantly clear that the church had such an incredibly dominant influence in the day to day life of basically everyone back then. Yes - Paganism existed in various forms and old folk rites... But it was in no way influential enough to warrant watering down Ars Magica's portrayal of Christianity.
And yes - I also agree like the fact that Ars MAgica plays Christianity straight without historical whitewashing, politically correct guilt trips, and pretending the past was way more egalitarian than it actually was.
You know that you can play basic ArM5 adapted to the cosmology you desire? Just adapt the realm interaction table on ArM5 p. 183 and some flavor text in its Realms chapter to your desires and start over.
Of course this means, that you will not play in a Mythic Europe based of the Middle Ages of 1220 any more, but it looks like you do not care. So the background and RoP books, and most adventures, are not for you - but this would be the same in any Ars with modular cosmology.
Playing in a Mythic Europe based on history requires some suspension of disbelief, which can't be reached without assuming some intellectual distance to all the beliefs expressed in the game world, both those 'winning' and those 'losing'. The ArM5 realms form a rather abstract game construct to be used by troupes and stroryguides, not a player character's instruction for use of the game world.
I myself currently play in the same campaign (currently in 1224):
(1) a magus who is a Pythagorean Christian, trying to live by Plato's works in a Christian world,
(2) a Sorbian Redcap who is a pious and ardent Pagan, trying to subvert local devotion to saints and particular to the Virgin into an immanent cult,
(3) a compassionate Franciscan preacher and Custos (in terms of his Order), who found the people in his Custodia to be most in need of working hospitals.
Currently the Redcap starts to see the immanent aspect of Franciscan devotion as an asset for his planned subbversion. The Custos needs any help he can get for his hospitals, and the covenant has an excellent Greek encyclopedia on Medicine. So the magus wonders whether Franciscans interested in Classical Greek books might in the end educate their Order, and help him educate the Order of Hermes.
Is anybody of these right? I don't know. Can they somehow work together in a covenant? For now they sure do.
There is a lot more to it than realm interaction. When ever aspect of reality has been defined by going to Christian dogma and liturgy as the first source for how the world works- when demons are defined by the 7 deadly sins, some of which are not remotely sins in other cosmologies (try to imagine a norseman who saw wrath as a deadly sin, or an ancient Roman being repulsed by lecherousness, gluttony or greed). The fact that nearly the entire book for the cradle and the crecent had to be dedicated to how Islam works in this world and it is one of the Abrahamic religions demonstrates just how strongly the bias runs through the whole system. Nobody has even discussed Judaism, which in medieval Europe would be like talking about the black experience in the post civil war south, only more so, and the existence of Jews is ubiquitous in Europe.
Yes Christianity is overwhelmingly dominant in Medieval Europe. That doesn't mean they have to be doctrinally right about everything in the game. Some alternative rules for people who want to play it differently is all I'm asking for, not throwing out all that is. Have demons of other cultures thrown in, discuss how divine and infernal auras work when other religions with different views on morality are in play. By the current rules Rome should have been a level 10 infernal aura before 300AD because of the orgies held every year as a religious observation of the Saturnalia.
And fundamentally, telling someone the way they feel about an issue like this is wrong does not address the issue. You are driving away players- I can't say how many- by adhering so strictly to the guidelines of Christianity to define the reality of the game. In my opinion the game should be actively more diverse in its worldview, more inclusive of those who want to play the system. Because IMO the rules for covenant management are great, the rules for magic are fantastic, but the setting detracts from the game, and makes it less fun. And telling people their opinions are wrong does not change their opinions, except for their opinion of you.
If I were to begin writing an Ars Magica 6th edition, I would begin with a statement like this:
"Ars Magica 6th Edition is set in Mythic Europe, which conforms, in most respects to the history of actual Europe in year xxxx, aside from the fact that it works the way people believed it did, or the way fantasy tend to view how it would have worked. It is a period where the laws of nature appear to conflict with each other, and people frequently held differing ideas about how things worked which did not always have internal consistency. Reflecting this many things can be true in Mythic Europe which seem to contradict each other. A peasant may go to church, swear by Jove, and celebrate pagan holidays and never conceive of the conflict between these. It is not a modern world, and different circumstaces may well play by differing rules."
Then build the rules from there instead of sticking to one doctrine or dogma.
Or keep going for more dogma, market to the fundamentalist, but I won't be playing if that is the way you go.
And lets keep in mind we are discussing a hypothetical 6th edition here... I am certainly not expecting a complete rewrite of everything in 5th that I a part of this issue. If we did that it would have to be 6th edition anyways...
I thought I told you that the RoP books were not for you, if you don't want to play in Mythic Europe.
TC&tC is a sourcebook for Mythic Europe. I quite see that you are not interested in that, but for the general interest see Losing Mythic Europe .
First we should define your issue. You desire, that
This implies a modularization of ArM rules, and then, perhaps, sourcebooks catering for different worlds and world views, one out of many applying to your saga. Look at Gurps for an example. This is not what the supporters of ArM desire, and are used to.
Then don't use the setting, but stick to ArM5 basic rules, Covenants, TMRE, MoH and the HoH-books. You wouldn't get any more from a modularized ArM either.
So you want a vaguely medieval fantasy setting with fantasy peasants swearing by Jove, and a general license for inconsistency? This sounds like generic fantasy to me, with a standing reference to the wikipedia for current rulers and borders. I feel that you can write that kind of setting very quickly yourself, and without a publisher.
So basically what you are saying is that you do not value diversity in your player base, don't care if you are driving away customers, offending people and generally behaving like bigots, and I should just stop playing your game if I have some suggestions for improvement that might additionally expand the appeal of your game?
I'm not talking about modularization GURPs style, I am talking about allowing a little more latitude in interpretation, a bit looser of a straight jacket if you will, in your published material, some sidebars about how there might be another way to handle things so it still looks like mythic Europe, at least in general, but it doesn't have to be a choice between Christian and delusional. I'm not talking about changing the Church, just the idea that the church is always right.
And the insulting posts are not convincing me that I want something other than what I am asking for, the reduction ad absurdum does not get a point through to me, unless that point is that you are an asshole. If you don't agree with what I am saying that is fine, but at least make an effort to understand it before you argue with it instead of these insulting and reductionist responses.
Don't tell me you need a rules system to allow you "latitude of interpretation"! That's inborn to you!
And there is no "idea that the church is always right" in Mythic Europe, that you somehow have to swallow. The Divine Realm provides some defense for Christian medieval society, though, to aid the storyguide in presenting a consistent and stable background.
Look, like I said before, the Romans had an annual religious celebration, the Saturnalia, which was a city wide orgy.
Under current rules this would have resulted in the buildup to a level 10 infernal aura.
You would expect that the Romans would have noticed that the cities participating in these rituals had demons running around torturing people for their own amusement.
Furthermore, since an infernal aura only diminishes under a stronger aura, Rome would still be a level 10 infernal aura, along with huge swaths of it's previous empire.
I would like rules where these sort of issues looking back do not occur, because under Roman religion orgies are not a sin, and therefore do not create infernal auras. Is that really too much to ask?
There is no official doctrine that the church is always right, but the idea is pervasive and ubiquitous within the existing rulebooks, in how just about every rule is written. I accept that you do not see it, I ask that you take another look with that thought in mind.
There are currently no realm rules in ArM5 and Mythic Europe you can just apply to Classical Rome. You would have to start by giving the Divine and Infernal Realms a history, aligned to the history of the people of Mythic Europe.
There might be some attempts at histories of ArM5 game concepts in Subrosa #16, though: https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/treachery-too-powerful/290/1 .
As I read the rules it doesn't say anything about those rules having started at a specific date, and presuming the entire laws of the universe didn't decide to stand on their head, they presumably would have applied the same in ancient Rome as they do in 1220 Russia where paganism still predominates, is the official religion, and a part of the setting.
I mean it would be one thing if there were something in the ROP:I about the nature of the infernal changing in accordance with regional prevailing religion, but as written the Muslims and pagans alike are dealing with Catholic demons. We won't even mention the poor Jew who are apparently wrong about their religious beliefs by nature of the fact they are a minority.
Then again, the standard medieval line on Jews is that they were half demons who could turn into rats and went around poisoning wells, so I guess you are being nice there, or perhaps you overlooked that.
Silver oak you seem to be very determined to find fault with the current Arm5 system. You have just had the line editor, David Chart state that he is a Pagan, and he still chose to write the game as he did. You complain the game isn't inclusive enough - but really, it seems what you're asking for is the game to be written for you and your game, and won't be happy until you get what you want.
So far as I can recall, you are the first person on this board to complain about this. The guys on TGDMB - who criticize Ars Magica for many things, aren't complaining about the lack of inclusiveness of pagan religions. On RPG.Net where the site veers incredibly left and SJW - people don't complain about Ars Magica the way you do.
I think you're alone here in this demand that the game be more inclusive for Pagan belief systems. As has been repeatedly said, no one is stopping you from picking and choosing what rules from Ars Magica to use. No one is stopping you from creating your own version of fantasty medieval europe. What you want in the game simply isn't commercially viable.
Well, the Russia of 1220 is in general Christianized. Just study a little, starting perhaps from here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiani ... van_Rus%27 .
More interesting are people which were actually still pagans around 1220, like several people in the Baltic. How is their relationship with the Infernal? I can imagine several explanations - but cannot give you an official one.
The average Catholic priest will point out, that the souls of pagan people go to hell anyway, and do hence not provide an incentive for demons to help them with it. But there is tmk no statement in the ArM5 rules about the final destinations of specific souls, no matter what their faith.
These - undiversified - demons are indeed a problem in RoP:TI.
There are two things I want. The first is to have rules or rules options written into the books where people don't have to be lunatics to not ee that Christianity I the obvious one true religion in this world.
The second is for people to stop making bigoted personal attacks like the following:
I say what I mean and you do not need to assume I mmean something else to have a straw man to beat up as an effigy of me.
FYI, this is kind of exactly my point here- the rules as presented are universal but do not work universally. If the entire universe worked differently 1000 years ago that is kind of a really big deal and should probably at least be mentioned. If not then the current rules should have been able to work 1000 years ago. When did the universe get an upgrade and reboot, and more significantly, how?
You're one to talk about personal attacks, silveroak
At most, I think what silveroak is saying should be (part of?) a supplement filled with optional rules. If you try to cater to everyone in the core rulebook, all you'll accomplish is those same people complaining about the book being way too big. (Along with everybody complaining that the bigness makes it too expensive )
Though at the end, I hardly even consider this a point worth discussing. Mythic Europe is no less fictional than any other setting, and the religions it portrays are at best homages, loosely based upon the real deal. Can you not handle namesharing? Mythic Christianity is not Christianity, Mythic Judaism is not Judaism, Mythic Norse paganism is not Norse paganism. You are playing fictional characters in a fictional world with fictional religious beliefs that draw influence from actual, real religious beliefs. Throwing a hissy fit over your own pagan religion being verifiably untrue in Mythic Europe is just as silly as a Christian or atheist throwing a fit over their religious beliefs being verifiably untrue in the Greyhawk D&D setting.
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