Wishlist: Ars Magica 6

Games Discussion Ars Magica
39

Aaaand,

Here we go again!

Re "what makes AM AM" I think I've said mine in a previous thread.

I loosely outlined more complex auras in another, but not a specific system.

As for books vs pdfs vs evolving electronic editions... I love physical books. I buy these. I don't buy gaming pdfs. I love Pathfinder's searchable database. D&D4 had continually changing rules via digital errata, which made the books pretty useless pretty quickly; to stay up to date one needed a subscription. This did not destroy the market for the game iirc, even though the WotC website was painful to use, at least during the free evaluation period when the game came out. A subscription with a good app and search engine is plausible, though I would still miss physical books. (Cue BtVS quote from Giles about knowledge being smelly.) Artwork would mostly get in the way here, since moving more bits around --> wasting more compute/download/render/retrieve/etc time and valuable screen real estate.

As an aside about artwork, some months ago I finally bought the new edition of Nobilis along with the last few AM books, and padded my order with some other gaming books I had heard about. To my surprise, the book I have spent the most time with was the one I expected to be the least interesting: Anima. The artwork probably swayed me to some degree :slight_smile:, and I am apparently not immune to such things. The art works well for my physical copy; I have since seen pdfs that load painfully slow. I enjoy that artwork too, yet would prefer it gone. And using the pdf as a reference isn't much fun, since pdfs are really not optimized for the screen (since they reproduce book pages, which are not the same thing at all, even if a screen is large enough to display a page with high quality.)

One thing that I think D&D4 got right, at least to some degree, is that NPCs and PCs are different, and can still work even if they are developed using different rules. In AM, I think something is lost when all creatures are developed according to a single set of rules: Weird powers become difficult because there is a fixed set of rules that have been (vaguely) balanced to work with PCs. For example, I had always assumed that when the canonical Magic Wolf becomes a pack, none of the wolves need to penetrate with their attacks. But that's not so, because of the general rules for MR. A creature's deadly poison is built as a power, so it has to penetrate (but a cobra's does not). The weirder powers are impossible to build. Rules for NPCs of this kind get in the way; maybe a different kind of rules set would serve better. The game is about wizards, and wizards are different from other people, so who needs the same rules if the game works better?

Age and wizards: The ancient wizard is a trope, but so is the wizard or witch who enjoys unnatural extended youth (usually due to some ancestor or nasty undertaking). I think it would be cool to have a wizard's appearance reflect who he is and be utterly unrelated to actual age. You're a studious Bonisagus or a wise and trusted Guernicus mediator? You start to look older and wiser faster. You're a flirtatious Merinita or Jerbiton troubador? Young. And so on. Extended shifts of personality or activity can change appearance, and maybe Twilight Scars involve both changes in appearance and required evolution in personality that cannot be undone (decided by the player, of course), representing the development of Essential Nature (an idea that is associated with the Magic Realm) that begins to subsume the essential choice and malleability of humanity.

Got to go for now.

Anyway,

Ken

40

TOA, I'd agree with you on the craft magic thing, except I'd take out and make it a house mystery of house Verditius. Pretty high end one...

41

I'm ok with craft magic...honestly, most of the things on Toa's list are not on mine. While I'd like a few clarifications on combat ("how far can you move?") I do understand a lot of what I want is in Lords of Men, which I haven't internalized yet. Combining all of the subsystems of 5 into a larger 5.5 corebook would be grand.

I'm not sold on narrative combat. I like having a bit of chance at play there.

As far as game world history, I did wonder why there were no North African representatives within the Founders. The Kahina seems like she'd be a little too early, but along those lines.

-Ben.

42

Other things that I wish would be clarified/modified are:

0.) More inherent conflict in the setting. History we can't change, but a OoH that has more intrigue would be good. This could be the introduction of more rival magical orders, or a much more significantly disunited OoH as the base premise. I dunno, what if the OoH was actually an integration of rival roman orders that never liked each other much in the day, and that still causes problems?

1.) The power level of texts - many threads here have been devoted to the prevalence of high quality summae and tracti. Some propose chucking summae, and just using tracti.

2.) Muto - what definition of "unnatural" should be be used to adjudicate the level of a spell? See tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=54753 for discussion on page 2 & 3 I think.

3.) Change the Houses - or at least some of the names. Jerbiton is the worst offender.

4.) Scribing rules - why does copying a Level 5 Summa that contains 50 xp, take the same time to copy as a Tractus, containing 10 xp? (Comm+Language levels per season, unless I'm mis-remembering).

5.)Muto Vim - I just don't even let my players use spells from this section.

6.) Muto Mentem is still weird

7.) Some arts, Auram, Auqam don't have nearly the utility of other Arts such as Corpus or Vim.

8.) All abilities/Arts using the same scale. I'm personally fine with two different scales, but for new players it seems to be a huge mind fuck.

9.) Lots of play testing just like 5th Edition received.

10.) More powerful base characters. My PCs start with 500xp or and they're still not that powerful because it's spread around.

11.) Support for different eras of play - i.e. "In the 700s, add 10 levels to the base level of all spells. Divide by 30 for longevity potions, the Art of Vim doesn't exist yet, instead do X etc."

12.) Clarify the Aegis of the Hearth - great spell idea, but some thread on here has a huge multipage list of how it works.

13.) Magic Resistance rule clean up

14.) Rebalance some virtues & flaws i.e. Short Lived Magic my troupe found to be worthy of a -3 flaw, not -1. Magical Foci are very powerful, Mercurian Magic is not a +3 virtue. (To my troupe!)

15.) Rethink the setting, given Mystery Cults and how mechanically, they lead PC groups to absurd optimization. Or be upfront that NPCs and PCs use different rule sets, and that's why the NPCs haven't changed the world yet.

16.) Much bigger set of virtues and flaws in the Core book.

17.) Bit more involved combat system - equally statted PCs vs NPCs are a HUGE grindfest depending on the circumstances.

18.) Hints of other Ancient Magical cults, i.e. Cult of Jupiter and possible descendants.

19.) Spell out the base paradigm of the setting in the corebook, if we're going to use Arts and Academe as a reference.

43

Time for me to throw my 2 cents...

Having followed Ars from 2nd edition to now, I have to say, the 5th edition is amazing, yet there is area of improvement.
The two editions I loved was the 2nd and the 5th. The second for its "simplicity", the 5th because of the overhaull on the magic system and because you don't need any supplement to run a campaign (sure they enhanced the potential, but they are not needed).

I tend to be on the side that if the next edition is called Ars magica, it does not need an overall, but more clarification and reworking on some area. Here is my laudry list:

  • Parma & MR needs to tackle the pink dot problem and be overall more intuitive. I still believe that Parma should give an edge against non hermetic opponent since it is one of the Order's supporting pillar, so I don't mind that edge wizard struggle in front of hermetic wizard. Ideally, I would like a system which allows more tension instead of being black or white (full resistance = effect; pass Parma = dead (or helpless) ).
  • Clarification regarding Craft magic, and general use of characteristics associated with Finesse;
  • Reworking of some virtues/flaws, including those appearing in supplements;

Then, in second priority, I would like:

  • a combat system more dynamic, possibly more narrative with less dice roll. I would like to be able to play an heroic fight without spending hours around the table
  • rework/clarification on the Vim guideline.

I still would like to thank the whole Ars team who is beyond the 5th ed for the amazing job done.

44

I missed another thread on AM 6:

https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/if-the-arm6-rumor-is-true-what-must-be-changed/4891/1

I think having as much as possible linked to in one thread is a good idea. I'm not sure if there will be an AM 6 any time soon, but having all of the threads for players and developers to go through is a good idea. :slight_smile:

45

I wonder if I go through all of the linked threads if I'll see some real changes in the answers that each of us gave at different points in time.

46

This sounds like an excellent plan!

47

I'm a bit biased, given how RoP:D and Rival Magic are my favorite books to date, but I really like emphasizing that the greatest strengths of Hermetic wizards aside from Parma Magica are their Theory and, largely due to said Theory, their versatility. I like it when non-Hermetics can call forth great power, greater even than Hermetic magi in some specialized area, but they suffer huge limits in other areas of comparison, because they really make what Hermetic Magic has to offer stand out without making the OoH's strength looks superficial (as I felt it did when I owned only the core rulebook and everybody who wasn't Hermetic was basically made of suck, thus making the Order seem more blessed by circumstance than actually powerful).

I'd also like a bit more potential for inter-tradition work, though I see why it doesn't exist. I'm a personal fan of, for example, Hermetic magi and hedge wizards coming together in times of great mutual need and creating an enchanted item with mixed helpful effects from both types of magic that is more powerful than the sum of its parts. However, I also recognize that one of the biggest background elements of Ars Magica is that different types of magic can't go together without integration. That eternal separation helps highlight the greatness of Bonisagus' achievement, explains a lot of the prior hostility between magical traditions, and helps keep Hermetic magic's status as the all-inclusive yet simultaneously all-exclusive most powerful form of magic available in Mythic Europe. But more capacity for cooperation would really be nice.

Biggest one here... More appropriate power scaling with monsters! In particular with regards to the Realm of Faerie, actually, though all Realms suffer from it. Pagan Gods at Might 50 is only even remotely okay because TMRE's "Ascension to the Hall of Heroes" Mystery caps ascending magi's Might around that point, and even then such a being is more cute than dangerous. Princes of Hell being reasonable opponents (or, with True Names, even summon-bait) for prepared middle-aged magi who don't even necessarily specialize in summoning is just unforgivable on every level and makes Hell look less like a sinister hole of torture and mighty infernal beasts whose combined efforts could topple the Order and more like a particularly large field of burning daisies that sparks occasionally fly out of. The Divine is a little better, by comparison, but still pretty bad, with the most powerful archangel ever to be blessed with power by the infinitely powerful Creator able to be taken out by a single covenant of middle-aged (!) magi with some vis and a Wizard's Communion.

Call me old-fashioned, but even with the Order's great power, Michael should be the type of opponent strictly for groups of the most elderly magi working together without guarantee of success. Not a being whose claim to fame is making unprepared younger magi quiver in terror.

Lastly. Parma Magica's great, I love it. In fact, I want more. It's in an uncomfortable position of utterly neutralizing all non-Hermetics and being a non-obstacle for Hermetic wizards. The Parma scales at a similar rate to monster Might, i.e. it's nowhere near high enough to resist attacks from appropriately-aged magi. Given that the Parma Magica's two primary functions are "negate effects of Gift" and "prevent magi from doing bad things to each other outside of War," it's a bit immersion-breaking for only the first of those functions to actually work.

Those are my numerous pence of input, anyway.

48

While I generally favor non-Hermetics being limited to weak magic, consistent with the reputation of Ex Misc and the old quote from page 30 of The Order of Hermes on the magic available to practitioners before Hermetic theory ("Generally these spells were weak and were rarely much stronger than third magnitude.")

49

I know I will be marched for this, but here we go:

I would like to replace the dice from 1D10 to 2D6

Drawbacks

  • You know: tradition and stuff.
  • reducing the risk of botches, which is bad if you lika a somewhat unpredictable magic setting.

Some advantages

  • Since Normal distribution is moving towards 7 the randomness when comparing a score 2 and score 5-character is reduced.
  • Reducing insanely high results. Instead: Double six => add another d6. If 6 again => Add another d6 and so on.
  • Snake eyes = chance to botch. 1/36 of chance to botch instead of 1/10. On the other hand, in every botch die there is a 1/6 chanceā€¦
  • More fun ways to handle game mechanics. Mastering spells adds 1d6 to roll. Affinities/Knacks s let's you begin with one die already at 6 = no chance to botch and 1/6 to critical (which is a much more balanced bonus for Tremeres certamen-prowess. Damage and damage reduction in base spells are handled in D6 - just add/remove 1D6 for every level. Skill rolls that lets you roll 3D6 and choose the 2 best. Deficiencies that forces the charater to roll only 1Dā€¦ and so on.
  • And you still are able to keep the standard bonuses, lists and virtues/flaws
50

I would not want to move to 2D6 for magic. I do think though that for Abilities, 1D10 is too greate a range compared with typical characteristic+ability totals. I did think of using d6 with a corresponding reduction in target number but I like open-ended rolls and botches and these would be too common with just a d6 range. Anyone any thoughts?

51

d8 for abilities?

52

  1. What I also would like to see (in a 5.5 version rather than 6.0) is a somewhat more "fleshed out" new magus at creation. Most magi would probably by default (not by virtue) have one or five artifacts from their master. If you ever had a Verditius amongst your ranks you quickly notice how many small practical objects that is produced. You also quickly realize that those objects is not longer necessary in your autumn covenant. Most magi would therefore gladly hand them down to their apprenticesā€¦ as their masters dit before themā€¦ which they seemingly don't do in ArM 5 at all. My point is that it literally would be thousands of old artifacts collecting dust in sancta everywhere. I would be pretty common for young magi to inherit artifacts with a worth of 100's of levels in total. Not especially useful artifacts, but never the less.

  2. Also. Rules of books and learning must be completely rewritten. For example: there is now a limit to learn from a teacher = the teachers score in the ability. All fine. Unless the teacher writes a few tractatus about what he knows, then you can learn even more than the teacher. And what's the deal with having to write summas from the beginning (score 0)? Why not start writing from 5 to 10 instead? And that tractaus takes much longer to write/copy than summas (as stated earlier in this thread). Writing time should always be based on the amount of xp that is possible to extract from the text.

  3. Repuation for covenants. A complete overhaul for character reputation would be nice. Do we really need separate set of rules for Verditius and Flambeau?

Edit: 4. Some clear guidelines for creating shape and material bonuses would be nice. Present list feels somewhat random regarding the level of bonus.

53

Maybe d8 for abilities, yes. The great thing about d10 is that most are inked 0-9 (rather than 1-10) so we can have 0 for a botch, which feels right. Perhaps the characteristics and ability numbers should be bigger rather than the die range being smaller. I am content with what we have sufficiently not to be bothered to house-rule this and, having bought every ArM5 book published I have a big investment that I would be reluctant to devalue by switching to a 6th edition that meant the people/creatures in the existing books were incompatible.

54

I've only been playing AM5 for about a year, so these mechanical thoughts are based on a relatively limited amount of exposure.

  • A standardized method of gaining/losing Virtues and Flaws that exists outside of the framework of mysteries, warping, etc. I think this is especially useful for companions. Of course, they aren't the focus of Ars Magica, but it gets awfully slow and lonely around age 45 or so as abilities advance at a glacial pace and aging points/decrep start to pile on. Advancing a companion through the years will never be as wild and crazy as advancing magi, but I think it could be more enjoyable if Virtues and Flaws were opened up through a standard framework.

  • In the other direction, I think grogs should be extremely simple, mechanically. The Grogs book does a nice job of adding flavor to them, but they still get treated like mini-companions overall, which makes bookkeeping a hassle and arguably doesn't make them any more interesting/useful. I think Dungeon World's hireling system is a nice, low-pain way to quickly generate grog-like characters. Grogs are background characters, so I think it's more important for them to be bold and memorable than to have the nuance of companions and magi. A standardized "grog yearly (or tri-yearly) event table" could help quickly run through grog-appropriate changes on a large scale for the entire covenant at once. There is something kind of cool about knowing that Grog Rollo got an aging point in Qik as Anno Domini 1241 drew to a close, but it's such a subtle change for someone with so little "stage time".

  • The Arts/Abilities XP progression divide is often a headache. As others have already argued, the bonus scale is out of whack since everything uses a d10 as its foundation. Even if Arts and Abilities were on the same scale, you would still be able to get higher bonuses from Form + Technique for less XP simply because of the triangular progression. This also ties into how books are written and the general tendency of other mechanics to make companions and arcane abilities dramatically less enjoyable to advance. There are certain aspects of the mechanics that would get crazy on a 5x scale, but AM5 already has the concept of magnitude, which gets used all the time. Don't want dudes getting +21 damage from their Advantage? Divide Advantage by 5 and round up. Parma Magica MR could be based on your regular score, with the certamen Resistance Total using your Parma Magica/5.

  • IME, high Soak > * and it can be frustrating/annoying that a major hit that gets completely soaked doesn't do anything to the target. Fatigue gets used a lot and I think a basic conversion of soaked damage into Fatigue could mitigate circumstances where magi or powerful companions get extremely beefed up and practically damage-proof. People are also extremely "Exert" happy because it's so enormously useful. If Fatigue were acquired more easily from soaked hits, I think players would be a bit more shy about doing it at the drop of a hat.

  • More fleshed-out Reputation mechanics would be great. The Reputation sections in the core book are pretty brief and I don't think they take into account some problems of scale/frequency. E.g. I play a Tremere Disputant with Harenarius and he started with a Reputation of Master Duelist 2 among Tremere. Unless I want to drive all of the other players berserk, I need to keep certamen outbreaks to one out of every four or five sessions. By the book, that 2 Reputation would require 15 noteworthy actions in certamen to bump up to 3. So, practically-speaking, I think guidelines on XP values relative to frequency would be great. Additionally, covenant Reputations could be very cool and valuable.

  • I agree with some others that the Virtues/Flaws could use a balance pass overall. That's something that could be easily errated, anyway.

  • I don't agree that Characteristics should be done away with. I think Characteristics cause a lot of problems in class-based games, and it could be argued that the "Hermetic Magus" pseudo-class has a lot of built-in requirements via Characteristics, but I feel that AM5 has done a pretty good job of making the various Characteristics useful for magi overall.

  • I do agree that PeVi guidelines could use some reigning in. I had no problem with our Storyguide nerfing my Tremere's various DEOs and Magic-aligned variants after I started nuking critters by the dozens.

  • More consistent guides and targets outside of form+technique guidelines.

Most of my other suggestions about AM5 have to do with organization of the rules and the tribunal sourcebooks.

55

I agree the d10 gives too wide a variety of scores for ability tests. If you move Abilities to the Arts xp method that ceases to be an issue. It also reduces the pernicious problem of Stat modifiers influencing outcomes so much.

56

I don't have a problem with the Stat modifiers and their current range, which is normally -3 to +3. There is a lot of variation within a human population after all.

57

Have you played a D20 game? D10's are just fine. And yes, I think that Stat modifiers SHOULD influence the outcomes. How many of us in real life have seen a vast difference due to natural ability in outcomes? I have seen dumb people trying to take upper level math courses in University - the result is not pretty.

58

Agreed! In the d20 games, the dice dominates over stat modifiers.
How many have played the old Cyberpunk 2020? Where you roll a d10 and add attribute+skill (seem familiar?), but the modifiers heavily outweigh the dice.

I really like the d10 (especially the stress dice), given the sizes of statics involved.

I've seen that too. Not pretty.