Would this need a breakthrough? Enchanter's Communion

Verditious themed discoveries

There are lots of enchantment themed mysteries outside of house verditious that are presented in Mysteries revised.

Planetary magic, Hermetic astrology, Vulgar Alchemy, Lesser and greater philosophic alchemy, hermetic Alchemy, the bit about enchanting in hermetic archetecture, Greater Talisman, consumate talisman, the spitit one that allows you to run you items off of spirits, the astrology one that lets you make a bevy of enchanted devices without a lab text... Lots! Any of them would make a viable research project.

How about developing a ritual that could open up an item for enchantement rathter than requiring a season in the lab. Make the ritual take 1 magnetude per pawn of vis to be instilled . This will mean that that the vis cost is doubled but it saves the enchanter a season. (This would therefore be incompatible with the elder runes virtue.)

How about a breakthrough that allows some sorts of muto vim spells that are enchanted into an item to function with a spell cast by a magus, with the restriction that the muto vim enchantment must be tweaked to only function with a particular spell? This would be similar to a weaker version of the enchanted casting tools virtue.

How about developing a lab activity to change the range, duration, targets, penetration, uses per day, or triggering actions of an enchantment that is already instilled into an item?

Actually, you would still need a season to invest the device.

Well if its not a spell, then its a lab activity. If its a lab activity, then the Vis you are using to 'cast' this 'spell' would count against your total you can use for the season.
Sooo this 'spell' would require at least four pawns of Vis...or are you planning on each participant needing to expend Vis? Since this is a lab activity, not a spell, you could count it this way -this would be the only way I would go with this idea as a SG...Of course, since you are burning more Vis, you would add botch dice to the roll mentioned. I kind of like the idea of all those botch dice... :smiling_imp: being applied to the Experimental table...

In light of degamer's explanation, I now see the rule as follows:

[code]New Seasonal Activity: Wizard's Union
You may work with other magi in the lab when investing an effect into a device. All magi must know the Union spell, and their total levels must exceed twice the level of the effect.

Choose one magus as the leader. He is the one investing the effect, accumulating the normal (Lab Total - Effect Level) points each season. However, the number of points he needs to amass to invest the power is divided by the number of participants in the Union. For example, to invest a level 20 effect in a Union of two magi will require amassing only 10 points (20/2).

Wizard's Union: MuVi Gen. This spell is never cast, but must be learned to participate in a Wizard's Union.[/code]
This is far more docile than what I initially imagined. If the extra magi participating in the Union are engaged in this lab acticity so cannot provide lab assistance to the lead magus, I would accept it as a Minor Breakthrough - it presents an alternative to speed up the production of magic items.

If the extra magi participating in the Union can also serve as lab assitants, then Wizard's Union is a means to significantly improve the speed of producing magic items - thereby also increasing the effective maximum considerable effect levels. But the "Union level >= 2 x Effect Level" sets a severe limitation on reasonable scenarios for investing truly powerful effects. I think I would accept this as a Major Breakthrough, but would warn the player that it's "on probation" and may be altered in the future in response to unforseeable ramifications.

If due to the Union there are enough extra points to produce more than one such items, can it be done? I rather like this idea - I imagine a cabal of Tremere magi meeting together to speedily fashion a stock of some lesser enchanted device in preparation to the coming war.

Urien - as I understand it, the Union spell isn't ever cast, so no raw vis is required for the Union itself.

It's not an Union if there are no dues. (OK, I'll stop now. :stuck_out_tongue:)

I always knew the Tremere's to be the gangsters of ME :exclamation:

Yes, I did see his explanation...let me explain my thought...

He wants to take a simple spell, and boost a lab activity (enchanting in this case). Granted, he is getting help, but its still a simple spell (what level 10?)
I say its a minimum of a level twenty..because its a ritual effect...
You have lots of Magi spending time putting their energy into the item... Since they are multiplying the magical effect being put into an item, they are raising the amount of magic being transferred. What this means to me is this...
The Level of the effect goes up...(raising the Vis cost etc)
OR
it becomes a Ritual due to complexity and Permanence.

Either way there is a cost involved.

If you allow this kind of activity, the next logical step would be to add extra spell ANY time to boost lab activities...
Anytime you wish to make a short cut or hurry things up, there should be a cost and/or major risk...
"Quicker, Easier is the Dark side..hehe"

The entire AM5 game is based on balancing things...Virtues/Flaws, Study/aquisition...etc...
This is allowing something very powerful..IMO its too much...

An option would be to have each magus in the Union pay the full vis cost for the enchantment. It's not completely useless, but if you want a big enchantment really quickly, you need to be ready to pay through the nose. Though Vim vis isn't particularly hard to come by. I'd probably also rule that if the enchantment takes more than a season, you can't change the number of magi, nor swap one for another.