Eve ex Verditius

They will not agree to #1. if you are a Hospities they will have work to do. Otherwise you can move on. If you are a Foederati you have much more room to move but are restricted in other ways.
Define Tremere library
The Tremere can not guarantee the cost of selling vis for silver as that is the prerogative of the Redcaps.

Not sure I'm comfortable with familiars writing tracti

Doesn't Tremere have a bunch of books they can lend to their members? Basically she to be able to get a copy of one of those books made for her, so she has access to study sources. Hmm... I should add that to the tentative contract. Also point about the Redcap buying.

2 pawns for a sound tractatus, level worth of vis for sound summa, those are the prices quoted in Covenants for buying a copy of the book, not just gaining access. Is that really what you meant ? Eve could get a much better deal for just studying the books... including potential access to some books that are not normally for sale at any price. Remember, Excellent books are simply not for sale, at least not for vis, so the standard rate means that she cannot get them.

First we'd need to decide that the standard rate isn't in fact 15 pounds, that's left open in the rules. Otherwise that clause is pretty much meaningless, as most covenants will jump at the chance to buy vis for mere silver, the equivalence has always been very theoretical.

Interesting. You might want to clearly state that the Tremere also have the right to copy the book as they wish, something they would certainly have insisted on.

Correspondence goo ? That's a terrible way to treat perfectly good parchment ! :smiley:

That's the cost all right. Alternatively you could link the season of dedicated work to the access to the library (they just pay the costs of whatever they ask of you, but you may freely study in the library). That falls neatly into the 'barter for services' clause of the price for Verditius work, and nobody can complain because there is no set value for access to a library. And it makes more sense, because given the quality of her work the Great Library at Durenmar would be delighted to have her as a resident writer, with full and free access to all the works inside if she'll just write a book now and then...

Perhaps you should reorder the clauses so all the ones about magic items are together, and all the ones about books.

From HOH:TL pg 87 you can sell 1 pawn of visto the Redcaps for 10 pounds of silver. They do not like to do it and the rate would depend on the type of vis.

They actually had paper at this time. It is made in Muslim Spain in the 11th century. In the 12th and 13th century it spread to Italy and other Mediterranean countries.

Yes they have books but they do not lend them out to contract workers or Foreigners.

Of COURSE! The Tremere have the right to copy stuff.

That's just the mechanical interpretation.

Good call. Off to fiddle!

Yeah, why I figured it wasn't going to be a big deal. We can always sell to Mercere.

On a side note I was going to have the two invented scripts be:

  1. Inventive Genius. Probably call the script Inspiration of Gnosis.
  2. Personal Vis Source. Probably call the script Gathering of the Light.
    In both cases these represent tapping into the ideal knowledge and light of the universe. Gathering it within you. And the scripts are effectively the same. Money and season of time sacrifice.

Even if that's the workers payment? What about outright buying copies of the works?

It is forgiven because you do not have Against the Dark and I have not had time to write this up yet. You can sell NOTHING to people outside the Tribunal. You can sell to the local Redcaps and they will then sell it outside. This gives the Tremere the first shot at buying anything.

Huh? I was planning on selling everything to the Tremere. And buying stuff from the Tremere. All intra-tribunal. Are you saying that House Tremere refuses to sell anything except to Tremere in the Tribunal? And they won't pay contract workers with books or book access?

Just how did you create these scripts, and don't they rely upon your Mystery Cult Lore? Wouldn't that limit their effectiveness to people with that lore? Just because you self-initiated doesn't mean that these scripts have any value outside of your Mystery Cult. And if your idea is to sell these, the fact that they are associated with your Mystery Cult is a blazing neon sign to the Tremere that you're attempting to gather followers and are working towards apotheosis.

No. Depending on your standing gives you different privileges. Civis and Socii can buy and sell to anyone inside or outside the tribunal. No one else has that privilege. So if you are in the Tribunal and are not a Civis or Socii, why would they contract for books? You can not sell them to others without going though them first. So if you write good books they will buy them and you will get paid. But paid in vis as per normal.

Hospities are contract workers. The Tribunal is going to pay for services like build a bridge or a hermatic shipyard. Hospities are temporary and in for a job and then leave. You might want to consider being a Foederati as you would have more leeway with Mystery Cult stuff.

She isn't going to sell these. Mystery Initiations are for herself and any followers/fellow magi free of charge. (Oh yeah, she'll refer any magi who going as fellows. She just gets everything first because she could risk other people on anything potentially unsafe.) And yes they do require a high mystery cult lore. She can create them with her lore, as long as she doesn't score a disaster on the rolls (which I still need to make) everything will work out fine.

rereads tribunal post, yes I suppose I certainly would. Anyway, okay locked that in. Individual agreement right? What about an agreement that includes a duty to provide new tracti, but including some level of library access. The tribunal does need to negotiate a decent agreement. While I, the player don't have choices in tribunals, Eve presumably does. They need to make a quasi-reasonable agreement. Getting Eve's tracti, in exchange for library access is something that most libraries would jump at. It costs them essentially nothing and they get excellent tracti. Why bother with vis when what Eve really wants are books? More to the point since the Tribunal is gonna be in control of all buying and selling being unwilling to guarantee book access implies that they won't be giving it out. Vis is worthless if she can't buy with it.

You can make purchases with vis from the Redcaps. They have markets or fairs in which they sell stuff. Again, they do not need a agreement to get tracti from Eve. If she sells them then they get first shot at them because Eve must go through the Civis or Socii. She can trade for books at these markets but they may not be what she wants. Eve has no leverage, at this point, to gain access to any Tremere books or devices.

Actually... if Eve negotiated her contract before going to the Transylvania tribunal, she does have some leverage, I think. She does write excellent tractati (there are probably some better summa out there since her level in the Arts is not that high). She can make decent longevity rituals (your prelude does have the Tremere making arrangements with a Mercere to make some, so they could use the help). She is also an excellent Teacher even though apparently she never bothered to learn the ability itself.

The key here I think are the Tractati. Q15 places them in the 'Excellent' category, the type that actually trade for favors rather than just vis according to Covenants. The kind the Tremere can then trade to other Houses or other Tribunal for the books they really want. The kind that actually gives her leverage in her negotiations. How much leverage I do not know...

Yeah, Eve would want to negotiate a deal with Tremere before coming. On one hand its a rather attractive place due to the whole "You can practice your traditions! We accept you!" On the other hand, when you start getting tracti of Q14+, especially before resonances, its really valuable. How many tribunals would say no to a tracti like that for 3 vis? If you go to a tribunal I would be surprised if you couldn't sell at least a couple copies at that price. Now multiply that for every tribunal. Getting access to an original and rights to copy it is worth a lot. So Eve probably does have a bit of leverage. At least enough that she can get a solid supply of books.

Look, rights to an excellent quality tractus in exchange for a few seasons of library access is a really one sided deal. Its basically "get excellent books added to our supply spend nothing". Sure Tremere might be rigid and inflexible and not share their knowledge with the rest of the Order. But that doesn't strike me as "good of the Order" very much. Why would they care if the person writing books for them got the materials she needed to study so she could write books for them?

How much can Eve Write?
Is there a completed Character sheet with her final Arts and abilities totals? Even if some items might have to be changed, I'd like to see finals instead of trying to reconstruct the end product from the gauntlet and her XP progression per year. And lastly, what is any self-respecting Verditius doing writing about Arts instead of making stuff? The last is said a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I'm having a hard time reconciling why she's Verditius.

Oh, and there is the issue of transporting her lab from wherever she was to Héviz... That's going to cost. And cost quite a bit.

Ambulatory laboratory. It will cost a nice fat 7 vis! Why is she a verdi? Because her parens was a verdi and brought her into the cult. She would absolutely make a better Boni. The real advantage to her is it allows her "openly" hold mystery rites. Story wise she probably doesn't want to be around verdi which makes Translyvania attractive. Still she has both proud and hubris. She'll totally open greater items if no one else can do it just to rub it in your face. And she'll do it out of charity. Just so she can point out you don't have enough vis to reasonably pay her. (No seriously she can open huge items! It could easily cost a queen of vis to open and pay.)

Anyway I'll try and finish her character sheet today.

Hey just noticed something, she can gloss nearly any unglossed book. Barring ones made by magical creatures or people with essential traits. Another benefit for the library. The important part is she can do it while reading the book. So not only does this not cost the library anything this benefits them.

Taking everyone considerations here would be my modified contract:

[Boiler Plate clauses]
Modifications are as follows:

  • Eve may gain access to copies of books found in the libraries owned by House Tremere to study. Eve may not copy these books. Eve must gloss the text when reading it.
  • Eve must provide one new tracti in an art or arcane ability of the highest quality she can manage every seven seasons. House Tremere has the right to make copies of the book and distribute both them and the original as they see fit. Eve may also retain a copy or copies although she may not sell or rent them. Nor may Eve distribute the book in any other manner without the Oath of Cow and Calf. If the book has already been sold, lent or distributed without the Oath the book may not meet this duty.
  • Eve may practice her Mystery Rites. These rites may not include compelled or coerced participants and may not include mundanes. (Covenfolk can be included.)
  • Eve will follow all House Verdi requirements when it comes to the item prices.
  • All books that Eve or Jane own may be copied or studied by members of House Tremere when not otherwise in use.

Long story short Eve gets a nice place to practice her mystery cult, and gets access to the books she needs to study from. Tremere gets access to excellent tracti and can improve their existing books.

If House Tremere is really inflexible she can go the route of dealing with House Mercere and the like, but I'm not particularly interested in a bunch of stories dealing with people trying to abuse a monopoly. Especially when they only really have the monopoly because of meta-game stuff. Eve can leave the Tribunal, I'm the only one stuck there. Plus I really doubt that Tremere would even be able to milk her for any extra anyway.

Sorry for the triple post, I know about the edit function, but I know people miss edits after a long wait time.

Got a special event when seeing how those experimental initiations went. So what happens? Please don't kill my kitty.

Ok, so, I've only commented on issues that were very apparent. I turned a bright light on Eve. There are some serious problems with the viability of such a character (lack of spells, even items and a talisman, combined with Weak Spontaneous Magic).

Weak Spontaneous Magic is going to be a huge problem. Low-Self Esteem, while in and of itself isn't bad, denies a pretty major part of the game. Confidence, and I'm the first to admit I used it poorly as an SG, is a very important part of the game. Weak MAgic is going to be an issue if she doesn't develop a large number of spells.

No, not at all. Ambylatory Laboratory, as had been discussed previously was made a level 50 spell via Errata. Even still, the rule for character generation is to learn spells by RAW, spending experience points, such that your total of Te + Fo + Int + MT + 3 (Aura) + Other bonuses is equal to the level of the spell. It presumes that you basically have a lab total.

I'd like to see these named and clearly displayed so that it can be compared against the number of tractatus she can write for each art/ability

Again, by RAW, this isn't strictly allowed. If you're allowed to invent spells by labwork, then we all should, and it opens up a huge can of worms. Personally, I wouldn't object to you displaying the design of the spell you want, and if your total is sufficient, saying you learn it.

Yeah, I have issues with all of this. How did she get her abilities to the point that she can write about them? The only abilities Jane gets for free from the bonding process are Language abilities the magus has. Not all abilities.

See above, but essentially this is 100 xp to buy spells. Add to what was done above add another 30 levels, 2 for the Ambulatory Laboratory, 1 for the season of experimentation and you will end up with another 130 levels of spells. Given that this character has Weak Spontaneous magic, it's going to be a problem.
Applying your rules to me, I'd have every Unraveling the Fabric of at level of 30 and higher PeVi totals. Now, granted, some spells would be out of reach, because you can presume the lab text isn't available, such as my Insinuation (Extrication) of the Mighty (Vulnerable) Grog, and Invisible Gastraphetes of Vilano might not have a lab text, altering the stone to metal... There are benefits to this method of putting in spells, and jebrick didn't say only certain spells, so you could conceivably get some spells that you might otherwise not be able to invent, if they're not too wild. Of course, at the expense of experience points/seasons.

Ah damn. Well I know where my first two seasons of work is going.

I'm gonna give them boring names. The kind of names someone who has proud and hubris five would give books.

I was under the impression it was just as RAW as any other laboratory project. In fact, compare wording:

and

The wording is essentially the same. Some form of "you may want to X". And yes we should all have the option of learning spells in the laboratory. So unless Jebrick has ruled otherwise, I don't see why not.

She started with them. The exact same way she got all of her other abilities. (Except teaching and Magic Theory)