1221.2 March of the Primi

[color=blue]"Yes, that is a most interesting question, isn't it? We, as a Tribunal, can speak as one either for or against the creation of the new Tribunal, but if we can't convince our sodales from across the Order at Durenmar to agree, it would be for naught.

"To be honest, I do not yet have a firm opinion on the matter. From my understanding, Lotharingia would be carved from the northern part of Normandy and the northwestern part of Rhine. I have yet to hear any proposals as to just where the new border would fall, but I suspect that Mons Electi would still be well within Normandy.

"However, whether or not we vote to cede territory for the creation of Lotharingia is not the real question to be answered, is it, Prima?"

The question will really come down to the magical resources claimed by Lotharingia Covenants. Normandy and the Rhine will not want them poaching vis sources that they consider vital. Do you know if the Lotharingia have a charter that deals with how they would handle vis? I know what they want to do with mundane relationships but not how they propose to handle vis.

Fiona looks at Korvin. [color=blue]"Then you more than I, sodalis, for I have heard nothing beyond the name of the proposed Tribunal. Would you care to share some information, so that we may hopefully make a more educated decision?"

(ooc - as best I can recall, Fiona speaks truth)

((serfs parma as my books are at home for any specifics))

Korvin's tone is like that of a teacher. I will tell you what I have heard from conversations with members of my House. Covenants from the northern Rhine and northern Normandy Tribunals are chafing under some of the rules in the Rhine concerning mundanes. They want less isolation and more...how should I put this...commerce. There was also something mentioned about relationship with Scandinavian wizards. Both sets of Covenants want to change the rules under how they are governed. Vassalage comes to mind as something that would be dropped.

[color=blue]"I can certainly understand chafing under the status quo," Fiona replies, slipping into the adversarial role in a disputio (I think that's the term) with Korvin, [color=blue]"but would it not be easier to change the rules you dislike than to try to get a new tribunal recognized by the Grand Tribunal? I assume that the magi pushing for Lotharingia have proposed changes to the rules, say, concerning distribution of vis and ownership of vis sources, and legitimizing vassalage, without any luck?

"And if, say, down the road a group of magi remaining in Normandy take issue with another rule, or an interpretation of the Code, and cannot garner enough support among their sodales to change what they dislike, what is to keep them from deciding to create their own new Tribunal?

"I'm not saying yet whether I'm for or against the new Tribunal, as I've not made up my mind. I'm just trying to ensure that everyone involved has considered all of the potential ramifications."

They are following the Order's rules for setting up a Tribunal with the number of mages and Covenants. What they are doing is not a trivial matter by some petulant spring Covenant. What has never happened is forming a Tribunal from two existing Tribunals.

Murion speaks, "I am of two minds on the issue. I have personal feelings about this, as it diminishes the Rhine Tribunal, and thereby would seem to diminish my House. However, such a change could be an impetus for change. Our Order is stagnating. Our borders have not expanded. The young," and she indicates all the members of Mons Electi, "are intimately involved in politics in their Tribunals and not pushing the borders of the Order. Some speak in fear of the Order of Odin, and yet we have a Norseman amongst us. Some speak in fear of the Sahirs, and yet they are being driven back in Iberia. Yes, we have had occasional losses to our population here and there, but these have been ill-prepared groups.

"I digress, I'm intending to put this on the agenda for Grand Tribunal. It's a vigorous debate, and one we haven't had in such a very long time. I do know that those in Florum and Spider's Rest have marshalled considerable resources towards securing votes, and will continue to politic across the Order. I would expect them to call upon Mons Electi at some point, to find out where you might vote, or perhaps even if you're interested in joining the New Tribunal. I believe Eloi is interested in joining, despite his attempts to maintain cohesion here in Normandy. Eloi operates on a very fine line, and can appreciate a relaxation of interference rules possible with a new Tribunal and an opportunity to draft a new Peripheral Code." When Murion mentions Eloi, Andru's interest becomes quite intense.

[color=blue]"Begging your pardon, Prima, but I would be quite surprised if the Lotharingian Tribunal would take so much territory from Normandy that it could include Mons Electi. Not inconceivable, however, especially if they were to draw the lines to look like it had been done by a drunkard holding the quill in his teeth. Not to sound insular, but I still have not heard anything to move me in one direction or the other. Perhaps it's because of my own rustic upbringing, coming as I do from a Tribunal that has had the same Prima since it was founded, and with only one Quaesitor in attendance, in a covenant that had become mired in a winter of its own making. So I can certainly see where the Order may be perceived as 'stagnant', particularly if my experiences aren't as isolated as I would like to believe. And perhaps more, smaller Tribunals may be the way to go. God only knows. But I would like to see the motivating factor for the new tribunals' creation as more than simply 'I don't like the rules here, so I'm leaving.' It should be because of a more grandiose vision of the Order, or perhaps our own little corner of it. And I can understand how a smaller Tribunal may be more manageable, more amenable to the changes needed to keep the Order from stagnating to the point where it ceases to exist."

"Fiona, you have a point. And so does the proponents. A vigorous debate is necessary. Perhaps by signalling to your Tribunal that I'm placing the item on the Grand Tribunal agenda, it may cause a serious discussion to happen within your own Tribunal."

Alexei extends his left hand to shake with Valerian and looks about him to admire the stonework. "Isn't it grand? I know I was quite impressed when I first arrived. As to what you can do for me?" he shrugs. "When you first arrived I was too caught up in the presence of the Primi that I failed to recognize you. But I certainly would not miss the chance to talk shop with a redoubted warrior and defender of the Order as yourself. A fine escort to such esteemed and powerful members of the Order." he pauses and smiles, stroking his chin whiskers. "But of course I have to ask...with the recent interest in our Covenant, is there perhaps another reason you are here and slipped away from the festivities?" he produces a bottle of wine and two cups and holds them up in hospitality.

[color=blue]"We can hope," Fiona says. [color=blue]"However, a discussion rooted in ignorance, or even misinformation, is worse than no discussion at all. And being new to Normandy, I have heard nothing save that a couple of covenants are dissatisfied with the status quo and wish to form a new Tribunal. I would need much more information than that to make a rational decision in favour of a new Tribunal."

(ooc – Fiona is fudging the truth a wee bit. Iirc, she's heard that a couple of Normandy covenants are staunchly in favour of Lotharingia – Cunfin being one, but can't remember offhand the names of any others – and finds it reasonable that there are at least enough Rhine covenants in support to make up the four required, but hasn't heard any real details beyond that. If you need it, her Guile roll is Com 2 + Guile 2 + die roll of 6 = 10.)

"Ahh, but which side is ignorant, or misinformed?" Murion looks at Fiona, "If they satisfy the requirements for establishing a Tribunal are met, I'm not sure we can prevent it from happening, unless I would choose not to entertain it. However, I have made the choice, and what happens now is the politicking. Some particulars such as the ownership of vis sources is to be sorted out, as well as borders, but I would expect that the proponents to have that well thought out."

While it is not expanding the Order's boarders outward, the proposed Lotharingia tribunal does expand the boarders of thought, politics and interaction with others. It seeks to push long standing traditions to the limit and beyond to see what would happen. Based on others view points with how mundane lords and the church might respond to this will steer the debate and the votes.

Korvin takes a drink of beer.

At least that is how I see it.

"If we are finished expanding our geographical borders, the only borders I can see remaining are political ones." Murion adds. It's been a lovely evening, and dinner was grand, compliments to the Chef she nods towards Andru and Korvin both. It seems she's familiar with the chef's cuisine.


Valerian ignores Alexei's hand. "There may be a reason. There may not be. I chose not to attend the dinner, because the discussion of politics gives me a headache." He smiles as he says that, and Alexei almost wants to believe him. "Truthfully, though, I wanted to see your vast wealth for myself. And while I don't have a formal charge to make at this time, be assured that We will continue our investigation at a later date. And, if you would be so kind, I'd appreciate it if you could take over for me. I invest you with authority as a Hoplite of the Normandy Tribunal to see to the care and comfort of Murion on her travels, said authority ends upon completion of your duties escorting Murion." Before Alexei even responds Valerian disappears, and where he was standing are three scrolls, sealed. One is addressed to Murion and one is addressed to Alexei and the last is addressed to Apollodorus.

Alexei stands gobsmacked at the revelation and equally sudden departure of Valerian. Stunned a moment more he finally looks down at the sheaves of paper left behind. Finally he gathers them up and cracks the seal on the one addressed to himself and opens it up to read the contents.

It's a warrant giving Alexei permission to act as a Hoplite within the Tribunal, so long as his duties are guarding Murion's person.

Alexei murmurs as he reads the scroll. "Hereby entitled...rights, powers and responsibilities...honoured ranks of Hoplites...unto death if needs be..." he finally stops and rubs his forehead for several seconds and then picks up the bottle of wine and takes a long drink before putting the cork back in and then rolling up the scroll and putting it back in the case.

"Be careful what you wish for. My master always said that." he says to himself as he heads back to the dining room, scrolls tucked under his arm.

Alexei arrives back in the dining room, members of Mons Electi and Andru are there, but Murion and her party have retired for the evening.

I'm wrapping this...

For summer:
Ulrich gets 8xp
Korvin gets 10
Alexei gets 10

I'm not awarding any other XPs here, but if you receive XPs elsewhere, you can spend those on relevant abilities used in this story, if you participated. For example, the Tribunal xp award could be spent on abilities and arts used in this story, even if you only participated in dinner party parts of the thread.

Ulrich would like to spend his points thusly:

  • 3 points in Charm, for trying to get the ladies to be nice to him.
  • 2 points in Concentration, seeing as how he's been having to pay attention with these beautiful women around making him all tingly and stuff.
  • 1 point in Carouse, because Korvin (iirc) said he was going to teach him to drink.
  • 1 point in Etiquette, for trying to be polite.
  • 1 point in Order of Hermes Lore, for Korvin answering his questions.

Yeah, they're kind of spread around some, but I'm trying to avoid a repeat of that sucky three-die botch that Ulrich had.