1222-1227 OOC

And Ra'am doesn't have any idea about the spider. Tria didn't see any reason to mention it. So Alexei thinks Ulrich is thinking of Theraposa... and Ra'am knows he's thinking of Rose, but Alexei doesn't have any idea who that is.

And his comment was taken just as Peregrine described. Being a Bonisagus has nothing to do with it, but being a father and also having an apprentice has everything to do with it. Here's a magus who has decided he knows how better to instruct an apprentice, an apprentice he could have easily had.

A tactic that just might border on good (I was going to say brilliant, but this might be a big flop of an idea). It could work well on Valerian possibly,

Valerian seems to be good at Terram right? An art he's likely quite facile it Spontaneously as well as formulaically. We get into a fight with him, what do we do?

We surround him in a tube or bell of earth/clay/metal. It would be magical, so resistance applies, but since it won't touch him, resistance wouldn't apply. It would require targeting him though. So what does V do? He destroys it, blasts out of it. So what did that accomplish? It obscured his sight, so he can't see anything going on, and can only TP to an AC he has, as it's a fight, he probably won't do that just yet. While he was inside however briefly, we put on a heavy weight on top of the structure holding him, not conjured by magic, but perhaps moved by it, even teleported if necessary, the weight is mundane. When he blasts out of the cage, it falls on him and squish.

What do you think? It has severl points of failure, including missing him on the catch, not balancing the wieght right, or him merely using Rego to try and move it (though that requires more effort IMO than simply destroying it with Perdo).

I'll just point out he has no fear of bringing a cave roof down with him inside the cave.

Right, perhaps thanks to his terram, but if the weight was wood or even the corpse of a large animal?

It's not without flaws and perhaps it wouldn't work on Valeran but others instead.

Time to crank up the ol' cowtapult.

(oh now you done it, a Monty Python and the Holy Grail reference!!)

Pitchez les Mush!


Well, I was a little puzzled too.

I understood Alexei joking about young boys and making fun of his own religion, not criticizing Ra'am or Judaism, so was a little puzzled by Ra'am's reaction.
But since I take him as clueless, (I recall him having a problem with Hiems), I thought he had not understood Alexei's intent. This happens, no problem.

When, IMO, Ra'am was not very nice was afterwards, for when Alexei subsequently apologized. Alexei didn't at first realize the extend to which he had offensed Ra'am (truth be told, I didn't, either), but he did nonetheless, and Ra'am was not very comprehensive or accepting. I thought he was deliberately humiliating Alexei.

So? It's IMO quite interesting to see how different persons can perceive the same thing :smiley:
(And if Alexei is not subtle and blunderous, what does it means about me? :confused: )

Does anyone here have children? Has anyone had the lovely experience of someone coming into your own home and saying your children are poorly educated/disciplined or just generally rotten? I know I haven't, and I know that even if I disagreed with someone's parenting, I wouldn't make any comment that suggests that I could be doing a better job. However, if I did make that comment, I could reasonably expect to be kindly told to STFU. Or if someone made that comment to me, in my own home, I would pretty much tell them where to go. Keep in mind that it is generally considered that apprentices are the children of magi. Most magi don't have the opportunity to have kids before their longevity ritual begins. So in a very real way Alexei was criticizing Ra'am's parenting. Further, he had the opportunity to assume Ulrich as his apprentice. Ra'am doesn't have to be nice, and I'd like you to consider how nice you'd be to someone if you were in similar shoes: being insulted in your own home.

I agree with this totally. Even in jest, Alexei insulted Ra'am's handling of his apprentice in his home.

One of the few things that Alexei actually knew about the situation was that Ra'am likely didn't have Ulrich too long. So his joke could have been worded better: "I don't know if you've heard the stories (indicating Ulrich's past BEFORE Ra'am could have possibly had any influence) but if I were his master I'd make church part of his lessons. <winkwink, nudgenudge>"

But it's over. He took it as an insult and a grave one. He fired back a few of his own at Alexei who apoligized and didn't escalate (such as calling Christians Blackhearts, implying to a Christian Flambeau that the Crusades were evil, etc, these were made in general, but likely if called out on it Ra'am would sya he didn't mean ALL of said groups).

Water under the bridge. Alexei considers Ra'am and Phoenix comrades in arms against the Quaeitori conspiracy and will word future jokes much better.

If it's over why bring it up?

I wrote what Ra'am said authentically, as in I put myself in Ra'am's shoes. It's very probable that Alexei has no clue, or even if he did have a clue about what's been going on in Ibera, would have been on the side of the Reconquista in Iberia.

Ra'am's experience is that those who call themselves Christian do despicable acts in the name of their Lord, and they forget all of his teachings. He didn't say Alexei was one of them that believed this way, but he's well experienced with those who do evil in the name of their Lord. He's also a pious Jew and is responsible for a multi-cultural environment that allows people to practice the religion of their choice. Around here, people aren't saying I'm this or that religion, they just practice it and live it, and do the work that is necessary to run the covenant. And you don't know that Ra'am hasn't had Ulrich involved in any faith discussions, you're presuming a lot in that simple sentence, and you're saying flat out you could do it better.

I don't think Ra'am fired back an insult, at best he might have suggested that Alexei was one of the Christians who would convert people by the sword, but Alexei didn't take the bait. If you want to get into a debate about the Crusades being evil, Ra'am would take that challenge. Ra'am made it very clear, almost explicit, that he is Jewish, so if Alexei wants to play the Christian Flambeau who relishes the crusades, this could turn out to be very different. That's fine, you can play it how you wish to do it, in a way that is authentic to your character.

I had to contort myself a bit, not much, but a bit, to get Ra'am to continue helping, you do not go into someone's home and insult them and expect to get what you want without getting a piece of the home owner's mind thrown back at you, at the least. At the worst you could have been kicked out. You'd also risk angering Jamie Lannister of House Flambeau, someone who strongly supported Ariel to ascend as Prima of the House. I'm not saying Alexei can't feel and say what he wants, but I'm saying that all the characters I have operating have motivations, and I try and write authentically from the character's point of view.

Keep in mind, I'm not at all upset, but Ra'am is quite upset, and he's helping Alexei only because he knows that allies he can trust are few and far between...

Wow, I thought I said it was over, but I guess I did bring up some sticking points. And it is over, Alexei has no intention of engaging in a debate with Ra'am. If they become actual friends later, no doubt they will have discussions of all kinds, and friends can definitely have heated discussions and still be friends.

But...(I do enjoy a debate)

Alexei has only legends and tales of glory most likely regarding the Crusades and Reconquista, and he would acknowledge that someone living there knows the reality far better than he, and he could accept at face value their experiences vs Alexei's uninformed notions.

Having said that spouting "You Christians" and saying they've forgotten God's teachings is a heck of a way to get his blood boiling. And then adding that many are Blackhearts would no doubt get him roused. It's easy to overlook that Ra'am didn't say or likely mean all of them in the heat of the moment. The problem here is that both don't know the other's awareness of recent events regarding Ulrich. Alexei doesn't know how much Ra'am knows about Ulrich's dalliences or the extent of them, and Alexei doesn't know what if anything Ra'am has done about them. From Alexei's perspective, regardless of how careless the joke was, it was actually good advice ("I don't know if you have done anything yet, but the boy might need some help regarding his particular problem"). And Ra'am saying he wouldn't force Ulrich to go to temple would be confusing to Alexei, because Alexei's apprentice most definitely would go to church with him, just as his own children and wife would. It's quite strange to Alexei that a practicing Jew wouldn't have his apprentice (a proxy child) go to temple or church with him and claim that was a good thing (that's a pretty modern view in all honesty, but considering he's in the midle of an area where people are compelled to worship at the sword, not too surprising).

I think it was insulting and a bait that Alexei didn't take. He would be mad and arguing out of ignorance vs Ra'am's no doubt far more experienced and personal perspective. Truthfully I haven't formed Alexei's real opinions about the Crusades, the closest thing that comes to mind is that finally some of the Sahir have come over to the Order and some Flambeau hate it while others defend it (he'd be inclined to defend the Sahirs more than attack them). And he also likes the story of how Flambeau himself might have put down the sword and his hatred of the Muslems and joined a monastery, he has hopes that late in his career he might do the same.

Alexei contorted himself also. From his perspective he said an innocent joke that backfired. The first thing going through his mind at Ra'am's response was "Oh no, what did I say this time? I really need this man's help and I've gone and insulted him in his own house. Quick, apoligize!" And then he apoligized again when the first wasn't enough and then finally said "Look, what will it take? I insulted you, let me make ammends" Alexei was willing (and almost suggested it) to engage in Certamen and just lose in order to make up for it, which is not something he'd ordinarily do, but since he so badly needs his help for Mufarrj, he would do that or many other things to make up for his inadvertant insult.

Now then, if the two had met and Alexei didn't need his help, and he made his joke, I can't see him not taking the bait. "I was joking sir! You Christians?! Blackhearts! How dare you! We are saving these lands from Godless invaders bent on enslaving us all! You should be thanking us! You'd be sacrificed to their idols were it not for Crusaders standing up for you!" is likely something he'd say. Not saying it's at all accurate of course, but it's something a largely uninformed Flambeau and son of a crusader would say. And from there certamen would probably be challenged.

So what am I saying? Got me at this point, I was interrupted by work several times throughout this. Let's let it end. After that ugliness and then still getting help, and then finding out Ra'am is also against Valerian, Alexei will scarcely recall this incident, and definitely look on it as something that was started by what he said.

I have to say though, that Alexei has twice now met a Jewish magus and angered them with what he thought was innocent comments or questions. The first was at the Flambeau meeting with the magus from Stonehenge. Both times his own needs were able to quiet down his knee jerk response. I might change that for future encounters whether Alexei is ignorant or not...or maybe he's changing for the better. I've often said he's not as hot headed as he used to be, and the times he has responded too quickly it usually hasn't been good in the game so far.

Rambling now, lost most of what I was going to say.

The Sephardi Jews did quite well in Spain until the incursions by the Christians. Jews were able administrators, doctors and men of letters. Indeed all of the philosophical work of the time is essentially because of Jews. So, you're in the home of a scholar and a Jew when his people are at the beginnings of their persecution.

He's invited Alexei into his home and is within a few minutes insulted. Alexei is very lucky to get what he's getting. And if you don't think you need to contort Alexei to a particular direction, feel free not to do so. I don't look for players to make their characters take inauthentic actions. I try very hard for all NPCs to make authentic actions, although I might have to stretch to make the reasoning work. Sometimes I fail, an dI need players to suspend disbelief more than other times. So, yeah, when Ra'am heard someone, without giving a moments thought say that he needs to take the boy to Church, he's going to educate the man on just what the Church means to a lot of people in Iberia. Phoenix has a place of worship for the three Abrahamic religions. And ideas on telling others how to worship are generally poorly received.

As far as the Flambeau Jewish magus, well, you can retcon that to never have happened, IMO. Those characters belong to someone else, and don't have a place in the saga without the player nominally responsible for them. I have enough trouble dealing with Azura, Laetitia and Glaupokis.

If you want to discuss Ulrich's spiritual development, in character, please do so. I'd suggest that's a discussion between Ulrich and Alexei, rather than Ra'am and Alexei. Ra'am isn't going to force someone who's essentially been orphaned twice to accept G-d on his terms. He's going to guide and demonstrate and be a witness to the power faith and prayer plays in his daily life. I hadn't covered it much, but Elizabeth and Ra'am take a break 3 times a day to pray, and on Fridays they pack up the lab work 3 pm and begin cleaning the entire sanctum. Regina (Ra'am's wife) joins in and they prepare the house for Shabbat. Shabbat isn't some boring time of worship, it's a time for reflection and it is celebrated as a joyous break from work. Ulrich might have been involved a time or two, and he's always invited, whether he joins in is up to him.

No no no, Alexei is done with talking about Ulrich's apprenticeship to Ra'am. Alexei considers himself lucky he's getting the help and is grateful for it.

Moving to a different subject...
What games is Mons Electi going to be participating in? I think we have for the Joust, Isen, Alexei and possibly Fiona. Marcus will happily do the Dimicatio again if someone is interested in running it. Is Korvin going to do the Dimicatio again? Now that he doesn't have the spontaneous casting problem... Does someone want to run Falcon ball or should we dice it out? If we dice it out, does someone want to do play by play (write it out) and we come up with a suitable reward for the effort? Does someone want to start preparing the grogs for the melee?

I've been working on the ladders for the Joust and the Dimicatio, and I expect these to be full. Further, I expect a lot of

I've been toying with the idea of putting out an open call for competitors, but I don't like that idea because there isn't a sense of ownership of the saga.

One thing that I didn't really consider last time was # of participants per team in the Tourney. I didn't read the rules carefully enough, but I don't think we violated it is that teams are limited to 5 members, exclusive of grogs or companions. Without reviewing all the threads last time, my recollection was Korvin, Fiona and Alexei were the participants. Marcus was not a member of Mons Electi last time, but is this time, which with the addition of Isen means that the team might be full...

My impression is that we made a list (the one that you linked to), and are waiting for JL to tell us what you found to copy.

Yeah, as someone who was only briefly a father-figure, any sort of commentary at all on child-rearing choices is grounds for nuclear return.

On the other hand, I did recognize that the only idiots who ever had the gall to question our child-rearing tactics were, quite obviously, people who have never been responsible for children. I would imagine that Ra'am's anger would be well-tempered by such familiarity....eventually. "Never had an apprentice, I see. Oh, but you've had a kennel master who raised war-dogs for you. Yes, I'm sure you believe that this is almost the same thing."

As near as I can tell, the Lion and Lily lists exactly 1 Verditus in all of Normandy, and he doesn't participate in house culture (the guy from Oleron). So, I guess Viscaria won't be showing off any enchantments.

I was thinking that it might be interesting to run Falconball in a slightly different manner, as we're the ones hosting this game and inventing it. It is, essentially, a Finesse contest between teams of up to 5. We are the referees. So, instead of dicing out the winners, we should figure out WHO is referree'ing each spot, and then have us roll dice to see how good a job we do as referees.

Do we NOT run the Hastiludium? Viscaria would want to be involved in that.
I'd like to try out Certamen.
Dimicatio is precisely the sort of thing one doesn't engage in as a follower of Vilano.

Viscaria will volunteer to referee for Falconball.

Mind you, she will also have a small booth in the Marketplace selling Genuine Falconball souvenirs, including Falconballs. Probably get a grog to run it.

Ra'am is unlike me and wouldn't consider sarcasm a suitable response.

Is it sad that, even when I'm specifically trying to wittily retort in a manner that excludes sarcasm, I still end up being sarcastic?

Tangent: I finally came up with a response to those @ssh@ts who look at my artwork and say, "So this is just Photoshop, right?"

Now I look them in the eye and say, "Yes, you know just the other day I was at this restaurant, and they must have had the most amazing pans, because the food was so good. I bet they were made of copper or cast iron or something. Not that I can tell the difference, you understand, but I told the cook that I was sure he must have very good pans."

Now I just need to come up with something to say that won't lose me customers.