Trading vis for books or lab texts might be a good idea. Just to say...
Nope, it doesn't.
But, conversely, inherited virtues are "free", and can manifest after the master has taught them.
I had seen your point, but what disturbs me is that "opening" bit. I don't see why an apprentice's gift couldn't be already imperfect, or later crippled by the master. Yet if one wants those, he needs multiple hermetic flaws.
In short: mandatory hermetic flaw at some point - yes! mandatory hermetic flaw at the opening - no! Let the characters with only one hermetic flaw have acquired it differently instead of all at opening!
Well, you transmit your flaws because they're part of your understanding of magic. That is, if you can't affect holy things because you were taught things that way and don't even know how to, you can't teach it.
So you know how to teach Flawless Magic to your apprentice. But this reshaping of his gift will also cripple his ability to spontaneously cast spells. You just don't know how to do one without the other.
BUT!!! Rest assured! Inherited flaws are there against the clone magi! And you can have they exist because of any reason you'd like. That is, if you have an inherited deficiency in Terram, it may be because your gift is weak, because your parens taught you badly, because an experiment he did crippled your gift, because you were cursed by some entity...
=> Teaching only virtues and flaws you know get a sense of tradition, of magical lineages, of filiation. And inherited virtues and flaw mean that every individual is unique, both in its nature and in the strokes of fate he may suffer
We are mostly in agreement. I feel the the teaching of virtues should come with a flaw to balance it ( like a mystery cult script) but the flaw does not have to be from the Magus teaching. It can be but gives some latitude in choice.
I also find it funny that some virtues are teachable. Intuitive Genius for example. Either you are intuitive or not. Just because your teacher is does not mean that your are. Most of us find that Gentle Gift should not be taught. There are several others that are much more likely to be inherited or natural rather than taught.
I'm inflicting a flaw at Arts opening, and giving a bonus to later teaching of virtues, treating it as an ordeal, because I want masters to be able to transmit virtues to their apprentices without having to impart their own flaws. I think you misunderstand me. So I'm going to try and explain it a different way. The hermetic flaw at opening is an inherited flaw, selected by the player. And it gives a bonus to subsequent teaching of virtues by the master. So, this is the only way a master, in most cases, can pass on their prized virtue without having to pass on a hated flaw. If an inherited flaw were to make itself manifest later, then there is no bonus to source quality AND it becomes much more likely that apprentices resemble their masters. I don't think any of us want that. So, to get around that, I allow the apprentice to choose their own Hermetic flaw, make it manifest at opening and then give the master the benefit of the Ordeal in subsequent teaching.
Getting to SQ 21 is pretty darn difficult. Ra'am is: Com 3+Teacher 4 + 3 +6 (single student) +Good Teacher 5=21! A character with a teaching score of 4 has spent 50 xp to get it there. Com 3 and Good Teacher also indicate a singularly motivated individual to be a good teacher, which comes at the expense of something else. How many magi have com 3 and good teacher 3 and a teaching score of 4? By reading what is required to pass on virtues, I don't see how the Order isn't almost a bunch of clones where lineages have the same Hermetic virtues and apprentices look more like their masters.
So, again your argument boils down to one of timing. You want a hermetic virtue to occur later. IF it does occur later then it is either a flaw the master has and passes down to their apprentice, or it is a flaw the apprentice has deep within, it's inherited. Taking the consequence of those choices into account, the inherited flaw does not have any benefit to teaching of other virtues and flaws. In order for a master to teach their greatest part of their gift (Virtue), they now have to impart the thing they hate the most (Flaw). I hate that. I don't want that. Do you understand why I'm insisting a flaw be there at opening? IT's a flaw completely unrelated to the master, but it gives him the benefit of the Ordeal later on. Also, maybe it's a really bad flaw and the Master works for 15 years to correct it?
I think I've laid out my reasoning pretty well. It has story implications and it makes sense in an environment where players have expressed an interest in not seeing their apprentices be a copycat of themselves. And it addresses the problem of the master being heavily focused on teaching (high com, Good Teacher, Teaching score of 4 or more).
Well, Viscaria has already got a long list of lab texts and a short list of books that she was shopping for in 1222. As I understand it, our options for acquiring lab texts are:
People could add to that list that Viscaria was already shopping for
they could acquire resources on their own, or
they could make it council business and get the princeps to do it (ie, best skill amongst us)
Viscaria has Com +2 Bargain +4 ("for souls" specialty applies to human/animal services/acquisition) = +6 for books
Fiona has Com +2 Bargain +3 ("service for service") = +5
I think we're the top contenders.
I honestly can't think of what else we might trade for books. We have a scribe and permancarius, but not a binder or illuminator (unless they're part of the 15bps of unspecified specialists), so we can't trade copies of books.
Renaud is going to try and hire and illuminator (from Paris) in 1222. The same time he is hiring a Greek teacher. JL said we would RP the search for the illuminator so that will be an up coming adventure.
Updated again. Added the season working with Fiona on Finesse, and corrected the running totals. Added the math for Aging Rolls, as near as I can figure them. Need someone to doublecheck my work though:
French Exposure. I think I may be adding it in too often. Can someone look that over please?
What are the Living Condition Modifiers for Mons Electi? Add 1/2 Lab's Health Score (round down) to the LC for anyone who spends more than half the year in there -- does that include my shield grog?
Look at her schedule so far and pick out an open area. We will work out some compensation after the Tribunal ( since you will be very busy).
Again, nothing gets put in stone until I hear about the Lab Texts. However, as an initial offering:
1225.2 - I'm learning several variations of Demon's Eternal Oblivion and possibly other might-stripper spells. With her help, I could learn another Lvl 10 might-stripper.
1226 is the year I make all the enchantments that we're not even close to vetting.
Likewise, 1227 is either learning more Finesse OR finishing those enchantments.
Presumably, compensation would be in the form of a magic item to aid in your lab work. How many season's of your apprentice's life would you give for a free Tireless Wooden Servant (as per Cov, 121, only made of wood)? Cost 4p to make, which means most Verditus would charge you 12p.
As I said elsewhere, Fiona and Viscaria are the only ones with the necessary skill. Hrm...maybe we should put some of those unspent specialist points into realizing that our Scribe:6 has a previously-unrecognized talent for teaching?
That was what I proposed in the the thread, and you haven't countered with a different time slot yet. It's not set in stone or anything, but I noticed that Fiona was going to learn to ride, and V was going to learn ReTe Craft spells, so it seemed like an easy option to suggest.
Because I bore easily, and because I am both a geek and a nerd, have a chart. I'll go in and add Fiona's stuff after tennis class. It should be set up to where anyone can go in and edit. And, if we want, we can continue to use it in the future, just by adding more rows and/or columns to it. Wasn't sure if you wanted Thera on there, but I'm thinking we will want Sheelagh and Ulrich, when he comes back, on there also.
Seems like anyone literate should go on the chart. Easiest way to make sure we aren't trying to read from the same book.
Only reason Theraphosa doesn't have any reading on her activities list right now is that I'm still waiting to see what's up with the Tribunal book. Should probably have Theraphosa read some of those MT texts, too. Can she even read the Herbalism text, or do you need a virtue for that?
I have downloaded openoffice and am reading the calc part to make a spreadsheet for tracking training resources. No guarantees but it does not look that hard to script. The time would be in entering the data.