1222.OOC

[Jonathan.Link]

Going a different way...

A covenant council meeting is much like any governmental or business meeting. Rarely are things decided at the meeting. Plans and broad strategies are discussed, and then parts of the problem are parceled out to individuals to handle. If there isn't enough information to act, someone needs to define their unknowns and then attempt to uncover them. Right now, the characters have a mess of unknowns. To borrow from Donald Rumsfeld, they need to quantify their known unknowns and resolve that situation. It is possible, that during that process unknown unknowns pop up. It is possible, that players, collectively could overlook something, and then I bonk someone on the head at a later date with that. You have the things you know and the things you think you know (you is referencing the character). If you're unsure about something you can ask me. I may adjudicate that with an ability roll.

Saying your character has been in the records room is about saying like you've been in a library. One doesn't know the contents of all the books within the library, just that there are a lot of books, and some of them may be useful in researching the topic at hand.

[Arya]

My point was just that the character has reason to expect that Valerian can get away with it, and that what she said in the IC thread is true to the bet of her knowledge.

[Jonathan.Link]

And my point is that the character should think that Valerian thinks he can get away with it. Not that she's going to let him.

[Peregrine_Bjornaer]

Just out of curiosity, when a Ward is erected to keep out faeries, demons, beings with might, Guernicuseses, what have you...that does not prevent someone else physically bearing them across the warding circle, right? If Fiona were to pick up Laetitia and physically carry her into the room, that would simply keep Laetitia from re-entering if she leaves, or would the ward pop her out of Fiona's arms? (if needed: Int 1 + MT 6 + die roll of 0 (botch check comes up a 9) = 7.)

[Jonathan.Link]

Didn't think about that.

This can be up to the troupe. I don't have a dog in this hunt. This is one of those things that has a slippery slope side.

[jebrick]

@Jonathan.Link

It's 5 with an Int of 3, so she'd add 8 to the lab total.
To use her, you need to have a Leadership score of at least 1 or not use Laetitia as all.

You get 1 assistant and your familiar without leadership
You get 2 assistants and your familiar with leadership 1. As leadership score increases so does the number of assistants, although I'll impose some limits based on the size of the lab if it gets ridiculous.

whenever I get some xp to spend...

[Jonathan.Link]

@jebrick

whenever I get some xp to spend...

Yes, I know. But you have to have used Leadership in some capacity, too...

[jebrick]

@Jonathan.Link

@jebrick

whenever I get some xp to spend...

Yes, I know. But you have to have used Leadership in some capacity, too...

Like herding cats?

[Jonathan.Link]

Redcaps.
Grapevines.
Magical Mercere.
Es macht nichts... (it matters not for those unfamiliar with German)

[The_Fixer]

@Jonathan.Link

Also, since I've laid bare the Darkness within House Guernicus, I wouldn't mind hearing opinions on what players are thinking about the overall direction of the saga. From this point forward the saga is definitely going to be more player directed, so gauging response is important for me to work any issues out.

I love them being big villains, the sense of crisis, the DOOOOOM.

I don't like this impression of them being behind all the previous crises, with the other houses (tremere, tytalus, diedne) being innocent victims.

Yes, this seems contradictory, but it isn't. For exemple, some tytalus may very well have dabbled in diabolism, and the guernicus used and amplified that to cripple the house.
Likewise, the diedne could have been competitors, both politically and magically, both using human sacrifices in their magic, with the Diedne really having their own dark secrets to hide. In fact, this seem to appear in your writings
Hum... For once, well, the tremere could really be the innocent victims, though

@Peregrine_Bjornaer

Just out of curiosity, when a Ward is erected to keep out faeries, demons, beings with might, Guernicuseses, what have you...that does not prevent someone else physically bearing them across the warding circle, right? If Fiona were to pick up Laetitia and physically carry her into the room, that would simply keep Laetitia from re-entering if she leaves, or would the ward pop her out of Fiona's arms? (if needed: Int 1 + MT 6 + die roll of 0 (botch check comes up a 9) = 7.)

IMO, this'd be like being intangible, and carrying a tangible person through a wall. You can't force her through.

[Jonathan.Link]

@The Fixer

I love them being big villains, the sense of crisis, the DOOOOOM.

That's what I'm going for.

@The Fixer

I don't like this impression of them being behind all the previous crises, with the other houses (tremere, tytalus, diedne) being innocent victims.

Well, maybe they weren't behind the crises, but instead magnified them all to be greater than they actually were? Never tell a lie when the truth will do. Always make your lies have a little bit of the truth in them to make them more believable.

@The Fixer

Hum... For once, well, the tremere could really be the innocent victims, though

Again, another thing I was going for, not innocent, but certainly victims of House Guernicus manipulations.

[Arya]

@Peregrine_Bjornaer

Just out of curiosity, when a Ward is erected to keep out faeries, demons, beings with might, Guernicuseses, what have you...that does not prevent someone else physically bearing them across the warding circle, right? If Fiona were to pick up Laetitia and physically carry her into the room, that would simply keep Laetitia from re-entering if she leaves, or would the ward pop her out of Fiona's arms? (if needed: Int 1 + MT 6 + die roll of 0 (botch check comes up a 9) = 7.)

@Jonathan.Link

Didn't think about that.

This can be up to the troupe. I don't have a dog in this hunt. This is one of those things that has a slippery slope side.

I think someone else moving someone across a ward would really defeat the purpose of a ward. OTOH I do think that in the case of Circle/Ring wards, you should be able to translocate yourself within it (the circle ward only prevents movement across its boundary, as one of the ward's fluff bits describes some jerkwad who used a circle ward to trap people within it). If the target is Room or whatever, then any kind of movement within by the warded should result in EJECTION (maybe projectile ejection! Woot!)

[Jonathan.Link]

I seem to remember that circle spells had some sort of domed shape in the area around the circle.

[jebrick]

@Arya

@Peregrine_Bjornaer

Just out of curiosity, when a Ward is erected to keep out faeries, demons, beings with might, Guernicuseses, what have you...that does not prevent someone else physically bearing them across the warding circle, right? If Fiona were to pick up Laetitia and physically carry her into the room, that would simply keep Laetitia from re-entering if she leaves, or would the ward pop her out of Fiona's arms? (if needed: Int 1 + MT 6 + die roll of 0 (botch check comes up a 9) = 7.)

@Jonathan.Link

Didn't think about that.

This can be up to the troupe. I don't have a dog in this hunt. This is one of those things that has a slippery slope side.

I think someone else moving someone across a ward would really defeat the purpose of a ward. OTOH I do think that in the case of Circle/Ring wards, you should be able to translocate yourself within it (the circle ward only prevents movement across its boundary, as one of the ward's fluff bits describes some jerkwad who used a circle ward to trap people within it). If the target is Room or whatever, then any kind of movement within by the warded should result in EJECTION (maybe projectile ejection! Woot!)

i dislike the idea of being able to pass a ward because you get carried in. i think it is suggested in one book dealing with a Fox of virtue or something like that getting carried past the AoH. I'll try to find it later.

[Peregrine_Bjornaer]

@Peregrine_Bjornaer

Just out of curiosity, when a Ward is erected to keep out faeries, demons, beings with might, Guernicuseses, what have you...that does not prevent someone else physically bearing them across the warding circle, right? If Fiona were to pick up Laetitia and physically carry her into the room, that would simply keep Laetitia from re-entering if she leaves, or would the ward pop her out of Fiona's arms? (if needed: Int 1 + MT 6 + die roll of 0 (botch check comes up a 9) = 7.)

@Jonathan.Link

Didn't think about that.

This can be up to the troupe. I don't have a dog in this hunt. This is one of those things that has a slippery slope side.

True story – when I rolled that zero on the MT check, I was hoping for a botch, so I could say "Yep, that sounds like a capital idea!" so Fiona could pick up Laetitia and try to carry her across, with hilarious consequences.

I think that you should not be able to physically (or magically) carry a Warded being across the Ward's boundaries. Magically (for example, with Lifting the Dangling Puppet), Laetitia would simply bounce against the ward's boundaries, like a balloon bouncing against a window. Although that's probably not the best simile when talking about a pregnant character.

Physically, though, I'm not sure how it would work. Would it be akin to ramming her head against a wall, and if so, would it do damage? Would both Laetitia and Fiona be stopped cold until Fiona releases her? Would she be able to carry Laetitia in, but Laetitia would then have something akin to a panic attack, an overwhelming urge to get out asap? And would such a ward have to penetrate Laetitia's Mentem, Corpus, or Vim MR?

I'm thinking that this issue (or something similar) came up on the main forums, but I can't remember what the consensus was (if any).

@Jonathan.Link

I seem to remember that circle spells had some sort of domed shape in the area around the circle.

The various Faerie/Spirit/Demon wards (ReAq, ReAu, ReHe, ReMe, ReTe, ReVi) say that "At some angles at night, the ring may be seen as a (colour) dome," the exception being Ward Against Beasts of Legend. So, if this ward is like that, we can spont some CrVi magical crampons and just throw Laetitia on top of the dome Surprisingly (to me, anyway), there are no ReCo or CrIg wards listed.

Or we could destroy part of the gold circle. Looks to be about a Level 15 PeTe (base 3, +2 for metal, +1 Touch, +1 Part). Looks to be just a shade beyond Fiona's capability.

[Jonathan.Link]

@jebrick

i dislike the idea of being able to pass a ward because you get carried in. i think it is suggested in one book dealing with a Fox of virtue or something like that getting carried past the AoH. I'll try to find it later.

Yes, I just reviewed RoP:Magic since you mentioned it. It does say that.

I'm generally in agreement that carrying someone (something) inside seems a bit hokey, so we'll say it can't be done.

I'm also inclined to think that any ward type of spell has some sort of dome structure above it, which includes Aegis, with the exception that it will cover any building within the boundary, making the dome structure reach to the very top of the highest point, and with some odd shapes, but I'm not going to worry about the exact shape or use it as a club against players.

The sneaky fox/individual will just have to time the entry into the covenant to coincide with the end of the previous Aegis and before the new Aegis is cast...

[jebrick]

@amul

Arya, I think you have valid reasons for reconsidering the location. For my sanity, could you repost that request in the Tribunal Prep thread? If you wish to do so IC, then assume it is after we all have had time to calm down.

Actually, Arya's earlier post about her position and stance was really useful in reducing my headache, especially given JL's comment that we don't seem to be listening to each other. I suggest we each drop out of character and state our character's position and responses.

For instance:

Viscaria wants to respond to Valerian in kind, once the futility of immediate direct assault (political or otherwise) becomes clear. She suggests that we take our cues from the Primii that are known allies of Mons electi, try to suss out ways to hurt Valerian and his cabal. She generally likes Laetitia's plan, but worries we may be too inexperienced to pull it off.

Moving the OOC to the OOC thread.

Korvin wants to focus on long term goals to weaken Guernicus hold on the Order by strengthening our own Houses. He has two different areas he can do this in his own house. One is the Recaps. Trying to get them to be more united behind the Primus rather than split into 2 or three groups. THat can be a power in it's own right by the Primus just using the votes of the House. The other angle is with the Gifted Mercere. It is the weaker of any group because there are only 11-20 in all of the House. But it is something. I can do stories for either or both angles. Even if Guernicus marginalizes Korvin he may still weaken them by strengthening Mercere against them.

Since JL made it clear that we will not be kidnapped and killed anytime soon ( by Guernicus) we can forget about the vassal covenants and going in and out of membership for Mons Electi. It was just a way of getting around that ritual if someone were in more risk.

[qcipher]

Finally well again. I'm at work and will be checking out all of the threads today and try to post where I can. Thought I had pneumonia for awhile there.

[Arya]

I KNEW IT I KNEW IT!!!

No straight man passes up on this hot mama.

[Jonathan.Link]

I had to make it personal.