1228 Guida the Redcap

for discussion, creation and development of the aforementioned

Guida at gauntlet is ready for your review: http://amfightorflight.wikidot.com/guida-at-gauntlet-20-years-old.

to begin with the name on the sheet is Lena the Alchemist...
you are 30xp short of finishing your apprenticeship,
scales of the vs dealer- where do you get a guideline for +1 magnitude for additional effect? Tacking on a second, related spell seems to me to generally be more than simply +1 magnitude.

Fixed the name.

Corrected the XP total to include Stealth 3.

I normally gauge additional effects under a same art the same way I would gauge additional effects using a requisite. The relevant rule I used to gauge that (114-115): "The second adds an effect to a spell. In this case, the base Arts and level for the spell are those for the highest-level effect it has[...] As a general rule of thumb, if the spell would still do something without the requisite, but it would do significantly less, then each requisite adds at least one magnitude to the level of the spell. [...] Most such requisites add only a single magnitude to the spell level, but if the additional effect is sixth magnitude or above, it is often appropriate to add two magnitudes." Here, both effects use the same base guideline level so the spell base is InVi 4, and each effect would result in Level 5 spells on their own if they were not merged. Since the secondary effect is not sixth magnitude, I've assessed that as +1 complexity using the above rules (but not adding a req since it's the same art). Let me know if that makes sense or if you use another way to assess secondary effects.

I understand your logic, but what is being added here is the equivalent of a whole new spell with the same TeFo, not simply a new aspect of a spell, and especially on an enchanted device it makes more sense to simply add the new spell.

If it was spells, I'd usually prefer the spells as they are. But for this item, I see it as poor design for a couple of reasons:

  • Instead of one lesser enchanted device, the enchanter needs to craft two lesser enchanted devices or an invested item. The first increases the redcap's number of items carried and should only be done if the crafter has a lab total problem, the second makes House Mercere spends vis it shouldn't need to spend if the item was designed as a lesser enchantment;
  • Paying things like uses per day twice due to having two effects results in higher costs again;
  • A magi might use the two spells for different reasons and not at the same time... e.g. if you're harvesting vis in a stream, you expect aquam vis, and may only want to check for the seasonal yield, on the other hand a redcap is mostly dealing with vis that has been stored in a lab in weird containers... so on business duty anyway, the two effects are probably always used together or not at all.

Merging several guideline effects in the same spell together is actually not that rare of an approach from what I can tell, but they seem to often write those pluses under different labels rather than +1 for additional effect when there is no requisite. In the base book, one of the clearest example is Hunter's Sense, which has a +1 for shape and primary motivation, which I read as combining Base 4 Sense the dominant drive of a beast + Base 4 Learn a specific fact about its body (shape), two InAn spells that would be level 25 on their own, but were combined into a single InAn 30 since the second effect isn't 6th magnitude.

If you think this approach is flawed or if you don't apply the sixth magnitude threshold strictly, then I may need pre-chat on lab work. Currently, I'll turn to the gamemaster for assessing things like intricacy, flexibility, and non-standard effects on spell design, or the exact mechanical impact a given custom effect would be because they're mostly ad hoc judgment calls, but for more things like merging existing spell effects, I do it regularly in my lab project if penetration and lab total aren't a concern, and for items I'm self-conscious about wasting vis and enchantment spaces.

As a general principle I prefer to follow the guidelines over the examples. In the base book many examples are wedged in from previous editions to make a square peg fit in a round hole, and in subsequent books there is a definite power creep of people feeling like there should be exceptions because the spell they came up with is, in their opinion, really cool. Things like "my perception" and "I get the impression" really are not evidence. I agree it would be more efficient to do things the way you propose- my concern is that the rules are being bent to get that efficiency. You have found one example where multiple guideline of the same TeFo are in a single spell with a +1 bonus- if you can find at least 2 more in the core books (not, for example, Magi of Hermes where it could be a roll on an experimental spell design) then I will reconsider.

Here's a few spells that stack several base guidelines from the same art combination into one effect:

  • AM5 124 - Ice of Drowning.
    Base effect 1: Level 5 Control a liquid in a violent way. ReAq 30.
    +1 additional effect, changing the water to ice which is:
    Base Level 3: Change a liquid into the corresponding solid or gas (for example, change water into ice or steam). ReAq 20.

  • HoH:TL 139 - The Unfaithful Favor: Using the errata's level of 45, the main effect is the teleport an item at arcane connection range which is Base 25 for ReAn 40.
    +1 commands in addition to transport points to a secondary effect which looks very much like the non-errata'd spell guideline calculation:
    Level 1: Manipulate items made from animal products.
    ReAn 15 (Base 1, +4 Arc, +2 Sun).

  • HoH: TL 141 - Call the Fallen Eagles from the Mist:
    Level 15: Summon a ghost. (Ritual)
    Base 15, +1 touch, +3 moon, +2 group, +3 size for ReMe 60
    +1 summon and control
    Level 5: Control a disembodied spirit. This yield a ReMe effect at level 50 - could have been assessed higher, but this is not a homebrew spell

Slightly different from the above which stack effects are either/or type spells, like Preternatural Growth and Shrinking which is a +1 magnitude for allowing multiple options that could be individual MuCo 10 spells.

Another one like Preternatural Growth and Shrinking is a power which is described fully with hermetic guidelines calculation rather than being one of the powers with no hermetic equivalent found in that book:

  • RoP:M 58 Healing Gaze power - Primary effect is CrCo 35, secondary effect is also CrCo 35
    Level 30: Heal an Incapacitating Wound.
    Level 30: Resolve a critical aging crisis.
    This either/or is assessed at +1 as well.

I will have to adjudicate in the future on a case by case basis, but it certainly does have some historical establishment. Will re-review the character sheet shortly.

The sheet is fine at guantlet- it is however a companion and not a magus, including the standard 2 seasons of work per year. As such she should advance at 15 XP per year instead of seasonally. She receives a level 50 Longevity ritual at age 35 (or later if prefered) and magic items can be upgraded or exchanged as per the standard rules.

At 30 years old: http://amfightorflight.wikidot.com/guida-30-years-old

what age is she going to be when you play her, because as a companion instead of a magus there is no need to break things down by season and advance in 10 year intervals.

Not significantly older than that, I'll finish the character then if it's not necessary to break it down by ten year period. For year 1228, since we start in the Fall, how do I handle the xp and seasons to her house? 7 xp and she has one free season or?

Go ahead and spend 13 for the year up until winter, we'll assume that winter is generally your working season unless there is some reason it wouldn't be.

Ready for submission at 35 with 13 xp into year 36 / 1228.

you are 13xp over age 35.

Yeah, she was intended to be 13 xp into her year 36 which ends in winter. I didn't adjust the age since the aging check isn't made yet.

That's right- It's been a hectic week. approved