This might be my error. I made the assumption that Amos had read the Charter, since I was reading the exceptions of the provisions in the Charter. Upon review, you are correct that I never made a "Int + Latin" roll like Serrano did. My reaction was based off of approving the penalty of a rook of vis for any member of the Order of Hermes abusing a covenfolk, whom the Covenant is supposed to protect.
Amos is definitely a mousy git. Since his mind could not have been further from anything sexual or "perverted" in nature (honestly, I didn't even make the connection with the whole necrophilia thing until Serrano said so in character), just extremely misguided and outraged, not perverted.
Amul can of course overrule/change what you get... actually, really, Amul should be saying this stuff, not me, so you might want to disregard. This was just my take of the situation.
Indeed: Hiems thinks that about Serrano because he don't understand WHY he's acting like that.
But guile would only be used if serrano lied or else, to pierce through his deceptions. So I'd say, normal Folk Ken roll.
Problem is, it'll have to be someone else: Hiems is currently not in the mood to face serrano.
(And love the gollum bit)
Nor would I want you too. Especially as, as I said, I like serrano and appreciate playing with you guys.
I dunno what can be said and done about your health and the various deaths surrounding you I know how morale can impact every other aspect of life, I just hope you're gonna get better on that at least.
He has Brave +03 , i don't think you can judge his illegitimate Latin by a mere one botched Latin Roll , with Folk Ken.
As he is Ex Misc and you have heard him speak however , it is a reasonable conclusion.
It is extremely difficult to make any decisions about this situation, as I still do not have a character sheet or back history for Serrano. In this discussion thread alone, you've made a number of assertions about what sort of treatment Serrano and his parens are used to, which I never read anywhere, let alone ruled on. It is impossible for me to say whether or not he is acting within the guidelines he proposed he would act in, because you, RC, never actually proposed any of this to me.
From what I can remember of Serrano's character sheet and back history, he does not have the social background or language skill to make himself nearly as well understood as he has been playing. There is a marked difference between Serrano's speech patterns in JM's Phoenix and this one. That aside, given Serrano's lack of any language at native fluency, and his Feral Upbringing, I would suggest that he should be used to finding the ways of humans, let alone magi, incomprehensible, and that his piety should make him predisposed to resolve such misunderstandings with compassion.
Further, I feel like it is the duty of the players to create characters which want to join the proposed campaign. Conflict between PCs can often be fun, but it is the responsibility of the players to find reasons why their characters stick around anyway. This assumption is so implicit in my understanding of the basic contract between SGs and players that it has taken me this long to even understand why this storyline has been devolving the way it has.
I am not going to "involve you" in the current situation unless you help me to do so. I provide the setting, the people, the political alliances, and the plot twists. It is your job to find ways for Serrano to be involved.
RC, you have not offered any in-character motivation for Serrano to join not just this covenant, but any covenant. You've suggested that your character would toss aside 15 years of indoctrination and Training In Vast Mystical Powers Beyond The Ken Of Mortal Men, and try to turn in the entire Order, over a single certamen challenge. Both of those choices contradict my basic assumptions about what makes a character playable.
All I can say is, if that's what your character would do, then that's what your character does.
It is your responsibility, as a player, to make your character want to join the campaign. It is your responsibility, as a player, to roll gracefully with your botched die rolls, and keep the game fun for everyone. If you can't find a reason for Serrano to resolve this, then it is not going to get resolved. If you're going to say that one botched die roll means that the efforts of three different characters to rectify the situation will be to no avail, then those efforts will not work. If you're going to decide that every effort to calm your character down only infuriates him further, than that is what will happen. If you decide that your character will not participate in the council meeting that will most likely take up the next month of gameplay, then that is what will happen.
I have tried to assume that some of the comments you've made which push real-life trigger-buttons for me have been meant as jokes, but even if you meant this as a joke, I do not find it funny.
Whatever may or may not be listed as a flaw on your hypothetical character sheet, Serrano is acting petulant and unreasonable. Jaime tried to intervene, and Serrano goaded him. Amos tried to apologize, and you chose for your character to feel further insulted. Hiems tried to intervene, and Serrano ignored him. Jaime offered to hold an emergency council meeting, and Serrano refused to show up. That is bull-headed grudge holding, that is foisting responsibility for your own actions onto others, and there is nothing righteous in his indignation beyond the righteousness that spurred the Crusades.
And, if haven't guessed, that is a major pet peeve of mine.
Post your gorram character sheet. Find a gorram reason why Serrano would want to join the campaign, and the covenant. Help the other players find a way to enjoy this in-character conflict. Play a character that is fun to interact with. That is your job. That is what you agreed to do when you signed up to play.
Some examples of ways to help the other players: indicate when a Folk Ken roll would reveal underlying motivations, allow characters time to react to Serrano before having him walk off in a huff, suggest character interactions which would work towards mutually agreed upon goals (eg, having Serrano sign the charter).
Grogs are minor, throw-away characters. They are easily replaceable and if they die, it does not impact the over-arching storylines. It does not change the meta-plot of the game. From my experience in troupe-style roleplaying, they often get a lot of screen time because of this. You're not as attached to the character as you are a "real" character, so you let them try dumb things.
The whole "let's make their food taste horrible" thing is CLASSIC grog behavior. A well-played grog sideplot can end up taking three or four game sessions to finish, and destroy months of "major PC" plotting in a single die roll.
Think of it this way: Magi and Companions are Ahab, while grogs are Ishmael.
I did not ask for a Latin comprehension roll. In fact, I said that the language of the charter was plain-spoken to a level only those with a really excellent grasp of law can manage. RC chose to make a comprehension roll because a poor grasp of Latin is an essential part of Serrano's character concept.
Folk Ken rolls made against other players in a pbp should probably be resolved by the player of the PC being read. If this was a live game, I could ask you to explain your character's motivation, and then translate based on the roll, but here on the pbp that just lags the game to a level that I'm not prepared to accept.
Amul , despite my lack of character sheet , it appears i do not have the writing skills of the other players ,
so for myself i find that everyone has misjudged the whole attitude i had for Serrano.
Oddly enough i don't always feel inspired enough to be funny and creative trying to write how i think a Latin 04 person would speak.
I realize that i am the only one who is unhappy with the character generation rules ,
and it would apply no matter who was running the game.
To tell the truth, I normally don't play one kind of character any different than any other kind. Grogs, companions, magi, I tend to play them by the maxim "Every character is the main character of his own story." And, although grogs may be statted out differently than companions or magi, when they're on stage, they're going to perform.
Some of my fondest memories of my old (4th ed) Ars campaign involved grogs. Jean de Bertrand, a guardsman who was the younger son of a Norman noble who ran away from home when his father had the woman he loved murdered. He wound up having a title bestowed upon him so the covenant would have its own lord (as it lay on the border between two counties). And Paul, the obese archer who, once while traveling with the magi, aced a Spot check and made a hellacious attack roll to take out an invisible attacker. Who was hiding in a tree. At long range. Upwind. And the tale just got more and more awesome every time Paul told it. (of course, several weeks later the SG realized he had misread one of the rules so, technically, he couldn't have done that).
But my point is, just because a character is a grog doesn't mean that they can't be important in their own way.
And, to be honest, I was just as surprised as anyone else that Celestria's story took the route it did. I just expected her to be in the shadows, just being mentioned or being window dressing. C'est l'art, I guess.
And the whole Latin 04 thing... As far as I perceive it, that puts you in the range of a lot of people around me. I thought you made serrano's understanding and language skills worse as a result of his feral upbringing and to make him stand-up: He has the vocabulary, but don't always understand things rightly.
I'm sorry, I don't fully understand you, and feel at a loss here. I'd like you to keep up with us, but, as Amul rightly told, we can only help serrano stay if you help us help him. So far, no character has a clue about his mental state or reasons
Doesn't Cecilia speak Spanish, and not English? (I had assumed that Cecilia was speaking Spanish, or Castilian, to the staff, as that seems to be a practically a lingua franca in the covenant.
And I thought that the staff did speak Castilian, at least well enough to communicate with the other humiliores...at least Sarah does, as she was speaking with Maria earlier.
Also...I had assumed (or was under the impression) that Spanish and Castilian are pretty much interchangeable, at least in game terms...is this right?
p.s. Are we also using Hebrew & Yiddish interchangeable, or are they two different languages in-game?
Oops! Oops! My faux pas! I thought Cecilia had the same language problem as Marie (the Scout) because of the confusion with the maids earlier, but it was because they were all yammering in Yiddish/Hebrew, not because she didn't understand Castillian.
Oh, and I think I ran across the source of the other issue with languages. I'm pretty sure now that the "language list" I threw onto the website may have been for 4th edition. Based on some of the posts, I'm guessing Lords and Men had some things to clarify the languages of the era/game terms, which I don't have access to currently. If someone has Lords and Men I think we should revert to it since it's for the correct edition.
Finally - Yiddish and Hebrew as interchangeable; I know someone asked but it was never clarified, so I was just randomly choosing/assuming Hebrew is still a "dead" language only used at formal situations. It can be changed too.
(I'm deleting the post in "the subtle rebellion" since they would have understood Cecilia if she were speaking Castilian.)
Just did a quick WikiCheck for Hebrew and Yiddish...and it appears the answer may be (D) None of the above. Says that Hebrew as a living language was extinct by the third to seventh centuries AD (but still carried on as a literary and liturgical language) and was revived in the 1880s, while the earliest reference to Yiddish (which started in what is now Germany) isn't until 1272.
So, apparently the "day-to-day" language of the Jews in Europe was whatever everybody else spoke. shrug Turns out I was wrong...I hate it when that happens
I hate the language issues too. Actually, I hate the entire open-ended-skill-list thing. As each new author contributes new rules, the world as a whole knows less.
With that roll of Cecilia's, she certainly has had some effect. Unfortunately, she's using Intrigue in a Divided Covenant, so her efforts will also polarize the religions. ~wicked grin~
At any rate, her efforts will have little visible immediate effect. Great RP, guys!
I'm all in favor of putting together a list of "These are the books we're going to be using to make characters" etc and sticking with that. I know i get frustrated when I see people ask character-creation/development questions and someone shoots back with "Well, that's covered in this new book that just came out, get that and you'll be fine." I know I can't afford to keep buying all the new books.
I'm in favor of going with the main book, the House books, the Realms book, Mysteries, and Covenants. Anything from anything else subject to troupe approval. Just my tuppence.
okay...AM5, the House books, TMRE, and Covenants? (except, I think I used a flaw from The Infernal for Celestria (Offensive to Demons...I guess anyone who already's used stuff from outside "the list" can be grandfathered in, though).
I have all the books, and, too, used a flaws from one of the non-listed books (Form Monstruosity, from RoP: Magic).
IMO, we should go with corebook, houses and Covenants, since these are the core and it seems everyone had them.
Anything else should be explained to the troupe first, in order to make sure everyone understands the issues.
From having seen it at play, the problems that may arise are not with particular rules per se, but when one tries to bind multiple rules and bits of text in order to exploit them (At the very least, something like using virtue-granting powers with RoP: Magic in order to have any power at will). I don't think we're much at risk of that here.
On another subject, Amul, I worked on a template lab for Viscaria.
I tried to avoid giving it too much virtues or flaws, in order for you to have room to develop.
So, it has 6 flaws (4 free, 2 minor), and 6 virtues (4 free, 2 minor). Tell me what you think about it, I may change it (although it'll take time...).
I see it as an underground laboratory, with floating, glowing orbs producing comfortable heat and light. It should have been of normal size, but the presence of a nest of magical worms in the ground proved too much a danger to the equipement, as they ate metal equipment. Construction was stopped in time, making the lab cramped, and the walls reinforced through Terram Magics, but some worms still manage to enter the lab sometimes, although these can have their uses in Terram-related experiences.
Aside from its wondrous magical lights, the lab was equiped with equipment of exceptionnal quality. Sadly, some of it have been eaten by the worms since the previous owner's passing, and is thus missing, making some tasks impossible until it's replaced. Sadly, let's say enthousiasm sometimes prevailed, and colors and tastes being rather personnal affairs, the laboratory may appear somewhat... nouveau riche (I believe this exists in english too. It's said of someone who gains a lot of money suddenly, usually wasting it in tasteless costly things)
Last but not least, the previous owner had a rather dangerous twilight experience while experimenting to learn Ball of Abysmall Fire, disappearing suddenly. He came back a few months later, but he didn't came back alone. Telling wondrous tales of a realm of fire, dragons and magical smiths, he brought with him small fire spirits that devour any flame or spark that isn't signaled as "Do not Touch", making the lab very safe, and love to assist in all ignem-related tasks.
Viscaria's Laboratory (stats in brackets are for viscaria or any size -1 or less magi)
Since his mind could not have been further from anything sexual or "perverted" in nature (honestly, I didn't even make the connection with the whole necrophilia thing until Serrano said so in character), just extremely misguided and outraged, not perverted.
I know how morale can impact every other aspect of life, I just hope you're gonna get better on that at least.