2.1 Preludes - OOC

[Ravenscroft]

@The Fixer

this is annoying...I like serrano

The problem with people roleplaying their characters intensely after all.

Serrano has always had a workplace agreement with all previous covenants ,
it is the same method his master still follows.
This would have been his first opportunity to be a full member at a covenant.
He is outrageously attacked for a fault in his latin and merely speaking aloud.
Illegal certamen or not (being forced into probationary member status , no matter how temporary) ,
his enjoyment of starting at a new covenant (of his own) is irrevocably tainted.

He was originally greatly offended at someone claiming to abhor violence being perpetrated on others ,
extremely willing to use those tactics for what appears to be a fairly trivial matter.

When he witnessed the transformation of the teeny-tiny kestrel into Amos ,
the whole situation was seen as "small-man syndrome" and could be laughed off.
Until Amos spoke that is.
No way will Serrano live or deal with someone who lies so outrageously , while trying to make it appear the fault is with Serrano.

As Amos is unlikely to be given a serious verbal smackdown by Jaime (afaik , anyway) ,
and the fellow magi (one so far) are acting exactly as his master warned him about ,
Serrano is confirmed in his original intention to leave.

There would need to be a provision placed in the charter about magi behavior to each other ,
though i don't think you can do anything about certamen , except bring charges at tribunal ,
if you are continually subject to unwarranted ones.

Amos is being well-played , i could not do half as well if i tried playing such a character.

[Ravenscroft]

@The Fixer

He'll then go and walk, until he finds some lonely and dark room. Once entered, he'll close the door, sit next to it, and depress.

I will put on a cd with Johnny Cash doing a Nine Inch Nails cover ("Hurt") and Serrano will craft him some razor blades.

[Ravenscroft]

The choices i (currently) see for Serrano:

Go and work for a rival covenant , even under contract and not as a member , giving them his vote.
Send a message to his Tytalus contact and sell himself in indentured servitude to get revenge on Amos.
As above , but to someone from House Tremere who will certamen Amos to not vote for Phoenix.

Go to the Templars , tell them everything he knows about The Order (which isnt much).
Begin by demonstrating his PoF wand.
Explain that this is a minor item for a non-combatant such as himself , being but a humble clothier.
Tell them about the Redcap network , give them the location of all the covenants Serrano knows of ,
from his past twenty years (apprenticeship +05) of travel and work.

If he survives the inevitable assassination attempts , join a monastery. :mrgreen:

[Ravenscroft]

What does the covenant Base Loyalty drop to if you lose one of the mages with the Gentle Gift?
(i can't find a worksheet for who is counted and who isn't atm)
-28 x 05 = -140 ; -140/04 = -35 for Base Loyalty , if i have the correct figures.

For those who hate the maths , nyah! nyah! nyah! i say.

Covenants , page 37:

If only some of the covenfolk are affected by any of these modifiers , then reduce the modifier accordingly.
For example , if the modifiers affect a third of the covenant , then reduce the effect on Prevailing Loyalty to one third.

This includes modifiers for turb captain , steward and chamberlain.

Established Covenants:

but if a substantial number of new covenfolk join the covenant ,
reduce the number of loyalty points by the proportion of the total covenfolk they make up.

See Familiarity , page 40.

So all those new covenfolk , not familiar with Jaime , do reduce the Familiarity bonus.

[Ravenscroft]

@chicoazian

I can think of one last idea that would be both in character for Amos and still be asking you to stay

Doesn't mean that Serrano is gone permanently , if someone comes up with a solution to get him to return.
We definitely have to consider him gone for the time being i think.

Anything Amos says or does will be considered Infernally inspired at this point.
Quite probably , if a priest were to speak with him , or the matriarch who is his main Dependent ,
she could convince him to return , as he considers her family , with at least as much influence as his Pater.

Apart from all that , it isnt about punishing Amos , it's about making sure his future behavior has bounds.
No-one seems to think that a frothing-mouthed challenge to certamen while misreading the charter is a big deal.
To Serrano it looks like a huge over-reaction.

On a purely utilitarian basis , who will benefit the covenant most at this point?
The normally quiet guy who likes working and doesn't normally bother anyone ,
can improve the revenue stream and has a Finesse Score of 09 (hardly common i think).

Has several useful items that will improve living conditions for the covenfolk and possibly magi.
Grape-growing to make wine is the major sorce of revenue , at least one item will help increase yields.

Fairly certain that a 7 point drop in Base Loyalty is significant also.
(i know that magi won't think in terms of numbers this way , but noticeable unrest with the covenfolk will)

Amos took an action that will negatively affect the covenant as a whole (imho , anyway).
Consequences of some sort should ensue.

Don't forget losing that vote at tribunal.

[chicoazian]

@Ravenscroft

Apart from all that , it isnt about punishing Amos , it's about making sure his future behavior has bounds.
No-one seems to think that a frothing-mouthed challenge to certamen while misreading the charter is a big deal.
To Serrano it looks like a huge over-reaction.

I know. I got an idea. And you can take anything he says Infernally or not. But if you or your Dependants were checking out the grounds and ran into the Church, then you/they would have definitely have run into Father Pierre de Lyons. Which would give me an earful of your situation.

IMHO, yes, my overreaction caused the conflict, but the reason we're not getting anywhere is because Serrano refuses to let us understand the situation from HIS point of view which fits with his character and viewpoint. A much greater Divine Intervention would be your Dependants or yourself even slightly mentioning how they've lived their lives up to this point. You can stay silent and fuming and shocked, but someone in your caravan/troupe would be excited about settling, yes? They would still be fine with leaving if you say this place isn't the safe haven you thought it would be, but until then how were they acting and talking?

[Ravenscroft]

Serrano isn't going to get into explanations or justifications.
As far as he is concerned , the evidence is already there for the magi to judge.

Almost forgot , what will Father Pierre say to Amos for driving away 8 pious christians , with money!
At least half of the 100 mythic pounds Serrano has could be spent on the local church.
Even if he doesn' t know how much money is to be had , apart from the normal 10% tithe to The Church ,
Serrano pays 02 mythic pounds per year to them , which would have been mentioned.
All of them (except Serrano) have done a major pilgrimage , quite a big deal and a good example to locals.

Do none of you understand that Serrano is not fuming , he expects natural justice to occur.

[chicoazian]

@Ravenscroft

Serrano isn't going to get into explanations or justifications.
As far as he is concerned , the evidence is already there for the magi to judge.

Almost forgot , what will Father Pierre say to Amos for driving away 8 pious christians , with money!
At least half of the 100 mythic pounds Serrano has could be spent on the local church.
Even if he doesn' t know how much money is to be had , apart from the normal 10% tithe to The Church ,
Serrano pays 02 mythic pounds per year to them , which would have been mentioned.
All of them (except Serrano) have done a major pilgrimage , quite a big deal and a good example to locals.

Do none of you understand that Serrano is not fuming , he expects natural justice to occur.

Father Pierre will say nothing since apparently the "8 pious christians, with money" were never introduced to him or interacted with him in any way. All of these arguments (well, not arguments) but in-game consequences of turning Serrano away are something none of us realize or know about because he's never once brought forth any of it. We can't feel bad about losing what we don't know about.

So... did Father Pierre interact with your troupe at all? Or did they mainly stay amongst their own and awaited the word of Serrano? Do I get a last deus ex machina, or do you think you would have more fun playing out Serrano's opposing play (the 4 or 5 options you outlined in another post)? That would actually be interesting too, really, if you went and purposely found a Reconquista Covenant to try and oppose any machinations of the Phoenix Covenant and, indirectly, Amos. I just wanted to provide one last chance to reconcile if you thought it worth trying to find an in-game reason to stay.

[Ravenscroft]

Amul will have to decide this one.
As a player , if i'm not involved with Phoenix , there is hardly any point turning the character into an opposing npc.

[Peregrine_Bjornaer]

@Ravenscroft

What does the covenant Base Loyalty drop to if you lose one of the mages with the Gentle Gift?
(i can't find a worksheet for who is counted and who isn't atm)

As it stands now, including Serrano, the base loyalty is -28 points, which works out to, I think, -2.

Without him, it drops to -33 (-32.5, actually), which is a -3. So all the loyalty scores should drop by one.

[Ravenscroft]

@Peregrine_Bjornaer

Without him, it drops to -33 (-32.5, actually), which is a -3. So all the loyalty scores should drop by one.

I get a larger fall in Base Loyalty , from -28 to -35 , can you put figures down to check this?

[Peregrine_Bjornaer]

@Ravenscroft

@Peregrine_Bjornaer

Without him, it drops to -33 (-32.5, actually), which is a -3. So all the loyalty scores should drop by one.

I get a larger fall in Base Loyalty , from -28 to -35 , can you put figures down to check this?

Cut&Pasted from my spreadsheet.

With Serrano:
Jamie Lannister 0
Constantine Amos -30
Cygna 0
Hiems -105
Serrano 0
Servus -30
Viscaria -30
Spring 1213 -27.8571428571

Without Serrano:
Jamie Lannister 0
Constantine Amos -30
Cygna 0
Hiems -105
Servus -30
Viscaria -30
Spring 1213 -32.5

The last figure by Spring 1213 is the average of the values.

[Ravenscroft]

@Peregrine_Bjornaer

Cut&Pasted from my spreadsheet.

With Serrano:
Jamie Lannister 0
Constantine Amos -30
Cygna 0
Hiems -105
Serrano 0
Servus -30
Viscaria -30
Spring 1213 -27.8571428571

Without Serrano:
Jamie Lannister 0
Constantine Amos -30
Cygna 0
Hiems -105
Servus -30
Viscaria -30
Spring 1213 -32.5

The last figure by Spring 1213 is the average of the values.

Thanks ,i didn't have those figures , i had 5 magi , not 7.
Though the quote from covenants would indicate that Jaime at 0 may not be wholly applicable ,
if enough new covenfolk have arrived.

[Peregrine_Bjornaer]

@Ravenscroft

@The Fixer

In catalan (Haven't Lion and the Lily, but this should be at 3 or 4):

Castillian is not mentioned in L&L , but possibly a -01/-02 penalty depending on how close they are dialect-wise.

Isn't Catalan more closely related to French then it is to Castilian/Spanish?

[Ravenscroft]

@Peregrine_Bjornaer

Isn't Catalan more closely related to French then it is to Castilian/Spanish?

L&L only mentions a penalty in relation to French , i was taking a guess based on geographical familiarity.

[The_Fixer]

@Ravenscroft

I will put on a cd with Johnny Cash doing a Nine Inch Nails cover ("Hurt") and Serrano will craft him some razor blades.

excellent

@Ravenscroft

Apart from all that , it isnt about punishing Amos , it's about making sure his future behavior has bounds.
No-one seems to think that a frothing-mouthed challenge to certamen while misreading the charter is a big deal.
To Serrano it looks like a huge over-reaction.

And hiems would agree, to a point, if he had seen it. He didn't.

What he perceived:

• Serrano makes a huge mistake
• Amos, acting on that, is shocked and horrified, and reacts harshly to what be believes to be someone willing to abuse the vintners
• Serrano understands his mistake
• Amos understands serrano didn't mean what he thought, and apologizes
• Serrano quits nonetheless.

He is too detached from this to react strongly to either, but he could understand both.
He'd like to encourage discussion before the facts, but afterwards, if people still want to certamen, the more to them. But this won't be discussed, since he didn't see what infuriated serrano, and serrano won't explain

In fact, to him, both amos and serrano are acting like volatile children Amos in challenging Serrano to certamen at once without making sure things were as he thought and Serrano in persisting to quit after the misunderstanding was cleared and amos apologized, apparently (as far as he understands) without a clear reason nor wanting to discuss the problem.

I'd really like serrano to stay, but it won't happen from hiems

[Ravenscroft]

There probably should be a few Folk Ken Rolls at least.
It is a bit annoying everyone assuming that Serrano has a bad temper and holding grudges ,
when he is simply stating , if strongly , that he will not tolerate lies.
Amos is the party Gollum after all.
Some Guile/Folk Ken opposed Rolls may be needed.

[Peregrine_Bjornaer]

Cygna's first impression of Amos was that he was was an (for lack of a better word) obsequious fool. All the more disappointing once he introduced himself as a Flambeau - he struck her as being rather weak for belonging to a house of fighters. Whereas Serrano was simply there during the introductions (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Amos went on to impress Cygna as being somewhat impulsive ("Then you have my vote Archmagus!" )

Then we went to the library, and things got...interesting. Serrano, almost immediately upon looking at the charter, showed himself to be apparently less-than-literate with his misreading of “the right to violate inanimate covenfolk, provided we pay for the privilege,” rather loudly.

Then Amos, in the front-runner for “wtf? moment of the day,” without (as near as I can tell) having read the charter himself, once Serrano loudly announced the violation provision, immediately and vigorously signed the charter (which, to Cygna, made him come across as a sick sick puppy) and immediately challenged Serrano to Certamen, which if Serrano lost would require him being a probationary member. Cygna has no idea where the deuce that came from...something about the payment for the violation being more punishment than privilege. Granted, Amos showed a lot more spunk than he did in the Bath Council Chambers, but signing a charter because it allowed you to violate inanimate covenfolk for a price? Really? And then to want to Certamen to allow Serrano use of the pen?

Then Serrano declined the Certamen, and decided to leave (as he'd not yet signed the Charter and thus had no legal reason to stay, as near as I can tell).

It was roughly at that point that Cygna threw up her hands in exasperation and left before she kicked anyone in the jimmies. She hasn't seen either one of them since then, until Amos arrives at the dinner.

And no one's told her anything about what has happened with Jaime, Serrano, Hiems, or Amos while she was elsewhere.

I can try a couple of Folk Ken rolls to see if Amos is really a perverted yet mousy git (Folk Ken 3 + Int 4 + die roll of 9 = 16) and if Serrano is really an illiterate coward (Folk Ken 3 + Int 4 + die roll of 6 = 13), if it would help. Wow...those were actually probably the best rolls I've had so far. Go fig.

So...um, yeah, that's where Cygna is on this. I hope the Folk Ken does help, because as it stands now: yes, Cygna does want Phoenix to rise from the proverbial ashes, but she's not too keen on either Amos or Serrano based on what she's seen so far, and she kind of wonders if they're the type she really wants to consort with.

Above-game. I'm still trying to figure out if Ravenscroft is wanting to leave the game entirely, if he's wanting to just take some time off while things settle down in Mundania, or if he just wants to play someone beside Serrano and is trying to write him out of the saga. shrug

[Ravenscroft]

@Peregrine_Bjornaer

Above-game. I'm still trying to figure out if Ravenscroft is wanting to leave the game entirely,
if he's wanting to just take some time off while things settle down in Mundania,
or if he just wants to play someone beside Serrano and is trying to write him out of the saga. shrug

Umm... No.
I'm still of two minds about the game , mostly due to the Ars Magica quickie character generation ,
rather than detailed season by season.
Lingering disappointment (now pretty much over) about how we started this pbp , considering it is my first of any kind , ever.
The various deaths of my dad and my flatmates dad did not help a lot.
My own general health , serious heart condition , which leaves me fatigued on a daily basis.

No intention of retiring Serrano to do another character , i would just say so , if that were the case.
Even if he goes elsewhere temporarily , he can always come back.
That being said , i expect , as a player to be involved in the current situation and not have to sit out several months waiting.

[Ravenscroft]

Regarding some of the characters listed as grogs , specifically (at least so far) Celestria and Fati ,
aren't they being played more like Companions?
Having never been in any games (character or SG) where people play anything other than Magi ,
i thought grogs were minor , throw-away characters , at least according to what i have read.