2.3 The First Council Meeting - OoC

Would I be correct in assuming that all the supplicants are speaking in Latin?

And also, that we have some time between supplicants? So that we, for example, Father Pierre comes, talks, leaves, we debate, discuss, and decide (or not); then the Widow Mustafa comes, lather, rinse, repeat.

~hates the language thing~

The vineyard manager's words have to be translated. Fati has Latin 3. The others all have Latin 4 or 5, thankfully.

You can ask further questions to each supplicant, and can discuss each matter between supplicants, and then after they all leave. The entire process feels very informal to you. If asked, Jaime doesn't object to creating a more formal system for future meetings.

Sorry. Someone very important to me had a death in the family, and, well, I'm being my usual empathic sponge and loyal-dumb paladin, taking care of those I love.

Be well, my friend, and take care of those around you to the best of your ability. Just remember not to burn yourself out in the effort to support others, fellow paladin :wink:

Ironically, Fati probably knows how to read and write Arabic. ~snickers at mental image~

Found the character description I was looking for of Father Pierre. It seems I went a little off-target from Chico's original concept. Chico, do you mind if we play that off as his outrage at the potential infernalism of all these ghosts? Once he understands the situation (I have that figured out already -- if you want to play him, we can work through it together), he'll come across as much more pacificistic.

I know there's been a thread or two debating penetration with regards to the Aegis (the one I've been trying to read is here), but nothing I've seen has convinced me that a Penetration total is actually relevant when casting Aegis of the Hearth...or any other ward, actually, without totally nerfing Wards altogether. I just can't understand why you would need to get a casting total of 50 for a Level 25 Ward, which supposedly stops any creature (of a particular type) from crossing a entering the circle. Maybe it's just be, but it makes no sense.

Or is that my 5e inexperience talking?

Well, in Ars 5th, all spells need to penetrate to affect someone or something (although, for things, MR is usually 0. Not always: See Relics).

For wards, this was explicitely confirmed by David Chart on these very boards (since the clarification on HoH:S p 113 "Wards and Penetration" was still not enough for some :unamused: ).

There's absolutely no statement saying that the Aegis is an exception to that rule, although some people prefer it to be so, probably in part out of habit.

Me, I prefer the Aegis to penetrate too, not so much for consistency's sake (The "partially non-hermetic effect" could explain that difference), but because it keeps the Aegis from being insanely high (Else, all you need is a lab total of 40 to have an Aegis able to keep out your average faerie lord. Way too easy), and makes Wizard's Communion useful.

So, am I correct in understanding that it would happen thusly (for example):

  • We cast, somehow, a Level 40 Aegis (maybe with outside help), but the Casting Total is exactly 0. The caster has a Penetration of 2, e.g., so the Penetration total is 2.
  • A freshly-gauntleted wizard from, say, one of the Roman covenants walk in. He has Parma 1 and Vim 6 (giving him a total MR of 3 vs. Vim, which Aegis of the Hearth is.
  • The Penetration of 2 is less than the wizard's MR of 3, so the Aegis has no effect on him.
  • He is now able to cast all of his spells without hindrance.

For some reason, this doesn't sound right to me.

And I'm still not sure that I like the fact that you now have to learn a Ward Against Blah at twice the level you did to have the desired effect, to get past the Penetration thing. I'll accept that it's RaW, but it still seems counter-intuitive to me.

Sorry for disappearing on everyone. Lost the internet for a couple of days/didn't expect to be without connection for so long. Reading through everything I missed, too late to post something today for me and still make work tomorrow morning - I will be posting Fati's "report" tomorrow evening.

Pretty happy about Cecilia's talk :smiley: I think I did a fine job here :smiley:

A flambeau journeyman, with Cr 15, Ig 14, Int 2, casts a Ball of Abysmall flame with a roll of 4. He has Penetration 2, so the penetration total is 2.
A freshly-gauntleted wizard with Parma 1 (MR 5) and Ignem 0 resists his mighty spell.

How is that any different?

But then, I think the Aegis having to penetrate is mostly great for creature purposes, and that's all. And, although I could very well be wrong, I'm not sure this applies for this effect that, anyway, I'd be happy to house-rule out.

Think about it: We're just 5 years out of gauntlet at best. Do you really want us to be able to cast an Aegis that blocks anything other that major saints, dragons and faerie lords? I think that, say, a lvl 20 Aegis cast through Wizard's communion would be much more in line with our power level, potent enough to protect us from most low to medium threats.

Well, DEO works in a similar way :wink:
IMO, it'd be better if wards against creatures had a fixed level, though (say, lvl 15), since this makes wards increasingly harder, but this is the problem, not Penetration.

I think we're forgetting something, here. The Aegis of the Hearth was a minor Hermetical Breakthrough and does not perfectly conform to the Lesser Limits - as such, it is NOT the exact same thing as all the other wards out there. It was meant to help give magi a "home base" to be safe and keep stuff out. The reason young Spring Covenants do not have impressive Aegises is because A - none of us can cast the spell. Heck, can any of us get the Lab Totals to even know the spell? and B - yes, if we all go together with Wizard's Communion, we might be able to pull it off. But that requires a LOT of pre-planning with an expected goal in mind during creation. We created our characters seperately. Notice - none of us learned Wizard's Communion. To get all of us to learn Wizard's Communion to cast this Level 40 Aegis would take just as long, if not longer, as one of us learning the spell. Problem C - I don't think any of us have a Magic Theory Score high enough to use 8 pawns of vis.

So - does it make sense for this Covenant to have a Level 40 Aegis Spell in its libraries? Yes, yes I think it does. Will any of us cast it anytime soon? No, probably not. We still need to find a means of gathering the Vim Vis and a low enough Aegis spell that we can learn and cast, by trade and/or calf and cow.

I meant for him to be fairly ambiguous and can be played either way. His speech does not need to match his actions, or vice versa- I wasn't planning on playing him. I can definitely see him believing ghosts to be more signs of the Infernal instead of Arcane until he expands his understanding. That makes sense too, though. :slight_smile:

This limit only applies to item creation, not ritual spellcasting IIRC.

Anyway, even if I'm wrong on this:

  • It ain't difficult to have MT 4, even at creation. Even a starting magus can reach it with 1-2 season of reading.
  • A lvl 40 casting tablet allow you to cast a lvl 40 aegis even with inferior totals, at the cost of increased fatigue. We could acquire one easily.

=> If the aegis don't need to penetrate to keep creatures out, I see absolutely no reason why most young covenants don't have a lvl 40 aegis (or better!!), with older covenants having more powerful ones. It breaks my suspension of disbelief, and, IMO, makes the SG's job harder, as it means that almost nothing can cross even beginning magi Aegis.
BTW, if the aegis was such a blatant exception to the rules that apply to every over spell, don't you think it would have been explicitely mentionned? You'll also note that almost all non-hermetic magic also needs to penetrate? So I don't think that argument is really viable.

What's more mythic?

  • A young magi, fresh from gauntlet, taking a casting tablet while his sodales wait besides, casting a spell mighty enough to keep anything short of a big dragon at bay?
  • A band of young magi all engaging in wizard's communion, to cast an aegis able to keep moderate creatures away?

Not that this is terribly important: in most games, the magi are out of the aegis anyway :laughing:

MRB, pg 82, Using Raw Vis:
Limit on Vis Use in Spellcasting: The maga's score in the Art of the vis

Therefore, Viscaria, with Rego 5 and Vim 4, can use up to 9 pawns of vis when casting the Aegis. With AL 1 and Philo 4, her CT is 19, so with nearly any die roll, casting the spell from a tablet will cost her 3 fatigue levels (Covenants, pg 90).

I'm not sure how this came up, or where the relevant rules questions are, but it seems to me the question for us is what a small band of 50-yr-old magi should be able to do with their covenant, to determine the effect of the Aegis 40.

That said, I do prefer the second option for storytelling possibilities.

Amos still hasn't chimed in on any of the bazillion issues facing the council, and I'm loathe to resolve any until every active player has said his piece. Especially since we still need to deal with Amos's indiscretion.

I have another work trip which will be limiting my time online until May 14th or so. I'll try to be better about keeping abreast, but even without Jaime and Viscaria's input, there is much left for the other three players to discuss. I suggest you continue to RP between yourself in the Council meeting, and move towards assigning specific issues to specific magi (or companions/grogs, even) to deal with. If there are pressing questions which require my input before then (and I hope there will be), PM me through the forums here.

In case I haven't been clear on this, these work-related delays will be a frequent occurrence for me throughout the summer. My goal is to create enough backstory and setting that the players have time and information enough to keep RPing while I'm dealing with real life.

Lot of work myself, so the slow pace suits me fine.
But great ideas overall :smiley:

This is strange. Are you sure this doesn't apply to extra vis, used to boost a spell? If not, I believe this might interest some people on these boards. Anyway...

I'm surprised by your exemple. I didn't have the numbers in my mind, but, although I remembered it was bad, I didn't how bad.

I don't want to push the point or be a jerk, but I find this shocking: Am I the only one here who finds distasteful the idea of a character with just Rego 5 and Vim 4 putting us by herself under an aegis powerful enough to stop might 40 creatures?
I would find a lot better, mythic-wise and story-wise, for us to use Wizard's Communion to cast a lvl 20 aegis with pen 20, with your average faerie lord (Might 30-40) being able to enter if he wants to.

Well, this sounds fine, with Wizard's Communion.

Serf's Parma, so I may be wrong.
If one needs a penetration of 40, this means a CT of 40 + (level/number WC)
Assuming 5 magi engaged in WC (with an average WC level of just 16, and this can be WC 40 for the leader, 10 for the other 4 magi)), we have a casting total of 48. So, for exemple: Sta +2, Artes Liberales 4, Philosophiae 4, Die Roll 05, and Re + Vi 33.
Is this unreasonnable for a covenant's ReVi expert?
Assuming, say, just an Affinity with Rego, nothing else, with Vim as a secondary art, he can have Rego 18 for 114XP, and Vim 15 for 120XP. Slightly high, but not unreasonnable at all IMO.

Personnal tastes, I agree, but I prefer this to that same magus single-handedly casting that same Aegis, especially as, even if he wanted to, he couldnt control a might 25 creature with a ReVi spell.

I'm pretty sure it does. The full quote from the "Using Raw Vis" option in the core rulebook says: "It is possible to use raw vis to boost the power of a maga's spells. The vis must match either the Technique or the Form of spell, and a maga may only use a number of pawns of a given type of vis equal to her score in that Art."

Ritual Magic (ibid, p, 81) also caps the amount of vis used in casting a Ritual Spell at the caster's score in the corresponding Art (in this case, Viscaria's 5 Rego and 4 Vim, for a total of 9). I'm assuming that the maximum pawns of vis to cast a Ritual Spell and the maximum to boost the power of a spell are not cumulative (that just sounds like power-gaming to me), but I can almost see where a sg would allow it.

As far as casting Aegis of the Hearth from a Casting Tablet...casting tablets are described as "an inflexible style of spell-casting,"with pretty all the parameters and options set by the tablet's author at the time of writing, including no Penetration unless it's built into the spell." Would the Artes Liberales and Philosophiae scores used in the casting of the spell be the author's, or the caster's? I would be inclined to say that it would be the author's.

Anyhoo...I think it's pretty plain that we're not going to have any choice but to acquire a Aegis of the Hearth casting tablet...the only question seems to be how powerful and with how much penetration.

Don't forget the political questions which, as SG, interest me far more than the actual effects of the spell:

  • from whom?
  • what are you willing to pay for it?

Which is why Cygna asked for a quick primer on Tribunal Politics 101, as she has no idea what's going on in Iberia. Of course, asking Jamie Lannister might be akin to asking Glenn Beck or Ed Schultz to explain American Current Affairs. :laughing:

Ah, this!
I may be wrong, but I've always read "boost the power of a maga's spells" as meaning "using vis to boost a formulaic casting".
As far as I see it, "it is possible to..." means "you may", whereas in ritual, vis ain't a possibility to boost anything, it's a must.
Although you can combine the 2, that is, boost a ritual by using more vis than nescessary.

As of the scores used with a ritual, well, we disagree again :laughing: To me, the ritual space will be created by the caster, and thus use his scores. I can see a point in limiting them by the writer's (like, follow a recipe. If you're awful, it's gonna be bad, but it won't get better than the original), but if you can't write the symbols well and don't even understand what's mandragore, you're toast.

Well, IMO, it might not be difficult to exchange a copy of our lvl 40 aegis with a copy of a lower-level one + freebies. Although a casting tablet would be waaaay better, especially if we use penetration for the ward effect.

The real problem being "from whom".

Given the politics here, and our lack of knowledge about the local scene, we might be better of trading with a covenant outside the tribunal, although that may take longer.

Well... if by logistics and operation side of duty, you mean Gerard taking them to dring and play games while singing, sure! :laughing: