First: As far as I know, the charter makes no provision as to how the disceptator is to be named. So this is something we can discuss and choose, with or without you. Especially as, as far as I know, there's already one active.
Second: I am under the desagreable impression that you've decided without even revieving or discussing the other choices, and find it striking that you find it preferable to give additionnal power to someone, rather than have us operate under, say, a majority +1 vote. If Democracy was good enough for the ancients, isn't it for us? Tell me, what's so great about allowing a block of 3 magi out of 6 to completely control this covenant, versus requiring 4 out of six to agree, that you're even unwilling to consider the alternative? What's so wonderful about needing to curr the disceptator?
Lastly: Related to the second point, I find your attitude most childish, especially for a man your age, although I probably shouldn't be surprised. Must we acclimate yourself that, when we don't follow your lead, you do a similar maneuver instead of discussing things and trying to reach a compromise?
To be clear: Although he don't like it, Hiems as no problems with the "duty" part of the disceptator, only with the idea that a council magus may, on occasions, have a double vote, and on his designation.
As always, you are the voice of wisdom, lady cygna. I bow to your recommendations.
Ra'am leans in, as he always relishes an intellectual debate.
"Sodalis, I invite you to read the charter, again, if necessary. But, I will state it plainly. It is determined by the Council of Members. The position is cyclical and mandatory and is determined in sequence of Hermetic seniority. The disceptator serves for 7 years commencing the year following the Tribunal." Ra'am points to the text as he paraphrases it, and invites Heims to read it more deeply.
"As to your impressions, I'm not responsible as to how you come by them. I said I find the other choices you have laid out displeasing, and that I am unlikely to vote for them, and therefore they are likely to fail, leaving us with the charter as written.
"Again, I'm not responsible for how you find my attitude. I am merely interpreting the charter as written. Since you seem to have the most concern about how the duties of the office are handled, I think you should be the one to hold it first. Given Jamie's indeterminant status on the council, generally, I find it the best compromise. Until we hear one way or another that Jamie intends to remain a member of Phoenix, we must be able to govern ourselves. If Jamie is no longer a member, or moved to an emeritus status which doesn't take on any responsibilities, I would be fine with that, and amending the charter so."
Ra'am ignores Heims comment about childishness and continues on,
"I find your unwillingness to take up the burden of power admirable, but realize that we will share it equally as we remain a covenant. And like Cygna, I don't want to amend the charter, but I find we must amend it as little as we may in order to run our affairs. Your proposals require a substantial amendment to a charter. And while I'm not against it, if we are to truly rule our affairs, we should draft an entirely new charter with the advice of a Quaesitore. And again, I am more than willing to entertain that, but for now, I wish to operate under the charter that exists, with few enough modifications that we can run our affairs. Is that an agreeable compromise? Pursue a new charter, while operating under this one, with as few modifications as necessary?"
[color=red]"Oh for crying out loud! You men are making this incredibly more difficult than it should be. I was Gauntleted the 10th of December, 1212. Ra'am, when were you Gauntleted?"
She will ask each of the magi in turn when they were gauntleted until she gets an answer from each of them. She then points at the one who was Gauntleted longest ago. [color=red]"Congratulations. You are now the Disceptator until the one year anniversary of the end of next year's Tribunal."
She looks around the table. [color=red]"Now, really, was that so bloody difficult?
"And I am not going to support scrapping our Charter and starting a new Covenant from scratch because you can't see the nose on your face."
"Heims raises excellent points, but I cannot support them. Framing a new charter to protect against rampant corruption among our numbers indicates a distrust of those here. Hypothetically I agree with Heims' concerns, but in practice? I have chosen to invest my future with all of yours. I will not sour our dealings with each other by fomenting suspicion and distrust. And Heims, your eloquence has only convinced me of your suitability as disceptator; congratulations!"
She giggles and gives the faerie magus a brief, warm hug. (Of the platonic variety, though of course he might not necessarily interpret it that way...)
Yet, as a scholar, I would have thought you'd give me your reasons for this, tried to convince me, or at least to explain your reluctance, instead of just stating "I don't like the other options, so you fail".
As it is, instead of debating with an educated sodales, I am left with a bully deciding for me without even caring to state his reasons. To be honest, I find this appealing, petty, and distasteful.
This, I understand and agree, like I said to lady cygna. This, this is reasonnable, and convincing.
But I no longer think this has any chance to work at all.
Hiems pushes back the maga
Then you... didn't understand me, and are way more suspicious than me.
My first concern was not corruption, but equality among us.
The simple act of being a disceptator gives one magus more power than the others. I don't like that. In my opinion, we should be as democratic as possible, and behave ourselves as scholars able to give and take arguments, reason, convince and be convinced, before voting as equals. Even if disagreeing, I like to understand the point of view of the opposing party, to see why they chose differently than me. I don't care being in minority. I do, however, care being treated like a child, a commoner, or an apprentice.
This discussion has demonstrated that, if one single magus, Ra'am in this instance, has the power to have his way without even trying to convince the other side, skipping this entire procedure... Well, depending on the magus, he will. Although it is less severe with the disceptator, this is something I'm very adverse to.
We don't need to be corrupt. We just need to disagree on matters and priority, without anyone of us being more "right" or "wrong" than the others.
Whatever.
Then again, I bow to lady Cygna's Wisdom.
I was gauntleted 5 years ago, on the the coldest day of january 1208.
(OOC: He almost said "You are a fool, and a suspicious one at that", but refrained).
Amos coughs a bit. "I'm pretty sure that's how the Charter outlines how the disceptator is chosen anyways. Hermetic seniority and all."
"Umm, Hiems," Amos interjects, "not to be contradictory, which I've actually been a lot of today and I apologize, I think that's the point Ra'am was trying to make in the first place. It says unanimous. Right now, any of us can disagree about something, refuse to listen, and nothing will change or get done. There has to be some meat - some authority and leadership behind the Council and the disceptator, or it's just a load of responsibilities with no way to get those responsibilities done." Amos then swivels a bit in his seat and turns towards Ra'am, "Of course, your response didn't sit well with me either. You might not care why we form our opinions, but they are based on your word choice, logical or feeling based. I know you weren't threatening - you were merely stating your opinion, but it didn't come across that way and Hiems is right. You didn't really say why you dislike his idea of"--Amos does a very poor imitation of a deadpan and cold voice--"majority plus one"--and switches back to his normal half-whisper--"or at least, I disagree that it would take a lot of changes to the Covenant. Wouldn't we just replace 'unanimous' with 'majority plus one' instead of 'majority'? The complete casting aside of his response I--I mean we--well, I guess I--is exactly the kind of power Hiems is afraid of handing to the Disceptator if we change it to just 'majority'."
"Sodales, I think we're getting a bit far afield, especially with our time constraints," Amos states, blinking a couple of times. "Even if we unanimously designate a disceptator by Hermetic seniority, we still have to deal with the original question, and the sooner we deal with it the hopefully easier it will be to deal with future issues, because obviously we personalities clash a bit." Amos sort of straightens in his chair and squares his shoulders a bit, "Can we go back to deciding between changing the charter from 'unanimous decisions' to 'majority decisions or 'majority plus one on decisions'? Anyone able to list any particular benefits or disadvantages to either choice? And is the minority willing to concede and accept what we discuss so we can get our first unanimous vote out the way?" He sort of grins and slouches back over.
"Okay, disadvantage to just majority - it possibly gives the disceptator strong powers to push through rulings that, per Covenant Charter, we must all abide by if a Council of Quorum meets instead of a full council. Which is 4. The advantage is our full Council is 7 - well, 6 if you plan to make plans on departure soon, Archmagus "he bows towards Jamie, "and--". Amos seems to lose his train of thought and scratches head for a moment. "If it's that big a deal, wouldn't it be easier for the dissenting member of the four just not show up? No quorum, no Council. Kinda rude, and might be fined later since the Charter says we're supposed to make every effort TO show up, but if someone really was getting on the rasher side of decision-making I think the rest of the Council would appreciate the delaying tactic."
It seems I wasn't very clear, and I thank you for making me see that.
I have no problem with the "enforcing the council's will" part of the disceptator duty. It is nescessary, in my opinion. It's just the "vote" part that bothers me
Anyway, this bring to me a question: What exact power does the disceptator have to enforce the council's decisions? As it stands, he seems to have none.
"Heims, the vote part is discretionary. And it only comes in the event of a tie. He doesn't have two votes at every meeting, he only has an extra vote in the event of a tie. And the term is for a small period of time. If you take the office, as it appears you are most senior amongst us new members, then we will have ample time to come up with a new way to govern ourselves. I trust you to execute the office with a great deal of care, because you don't seek it. As the disceptator has the power to keep order at the meetings, if a vote is tied, he could table the vote for a future meeting, and allow people to come to some better understanding, giving some time to reconsider their votes.
"As to the powers to enforce decisions, mostly those powers are temporal in nature. When it comes to enforcing them with Magi, at best I can see it as a reminder of an obligation one might've made in council. Only the council has the right to censure or otherwise punish a member."
[color=red]"I would have no objection to returning the Charter to its original wording of 'majority vote'," Cygna says thoughtfully, [color=red]"on all issues save changes to the charter and issues involving a member or potential member's status. I would be leery, however, of making it a 'majority plus one,' simply because that would put us in a situation too close to what we're worried about now for my liking. As it stands, if we don't include Jaime, then we have six members: myself, Ra'am, Heims, Viscaria, Azura, and Amos. Majority plus one would be five of the six, whereas a simple majority would be four. I think it would be easier to convince two thirds of us to, say, hold all regular Council meetings on the Thursday immediately before the Solstice or Equinox than it would to convince all but one."
She then looks at Heims. [color=red]"As far as what enforcement powers the Disceptator would hold over us? Regarding the 'mortals,'" (and you can almost hear the air-quotes around the word), [color=red]"I would think that the fact that you are the leader of the magi's council should be inducement enough. Over us, however...if the powers of grape tarts and lemon cakes can't keep you in line, then you are well and truly lost." Cygna grins broadly.
[color=red]"And, so far, Heims is the eldest...Viscaria, however, said yesterday that she was less than a decade out of Gauntlet...which makes me suspect that she may be older than Heims, Hermetically speaking. Is that correct, Viscaria?
"And do we want to have either Heims or Viscaria take the remainder of the current term and the term beginning after the next Tribunal, or have the soon-to-be current Disceptator serve an abbreviated term and then hand off their duties to the next eldest?"
She purses her lips thoughtfully for a second. [color=red]"Before we decide that, however...I move that we amend the charter as discussed...making all Council decisions not involving changes to the charter or changes in membership status a majority vote of the Council."
"I vote yes for your proposed changes to the charter."
"I say that whomever takes the office of disceptator takes it for the period of next two years, and if we haven't changed governance in the next two years a new person takes the office. Any change should be carefully discussed, and perhaps vetted via a Quaesitor, so we get the meaning we intend. I agree with your interpretation, Cygna. Majority +1 requires 5 out of 6, or 7 of us, which means it becomes very difficult to actually take action. And of course, this is a long term process that should not be entered into quickly, and without much discussion, which is beyond the scope of our first meeting. The office overall poses some challenges for the long term, for example, I could imagine that Azura would probably want to demur, because she might have administrative duties to take care of with the Mercere House."
At Cygna's last words, a breath Azura hadn't realized she'd been holding bursts from her mouth.
Suddenly self-conscious, she waves a hand and weakly offers "No need to worry though, I'm obviously the youngest one here," and sinks back into her seat.
Thanks for pointing that out.
I just realize now that I've been confused, but so was Ra'am.
We agreed on a majority vote instead of an unanymous one, but then, Ra'am spoke of ties as a valid case, for these times where there are 3 magi pro, and 3 magi con. Thus, My proposal of a needing 1 more vote to pass an issue, which I wrongly called "majority +1"... Whenever it is, in fact, simple absolute majority.
Thing is, this is quite simple actually. Either you get your majority, or you don't. If you tie, you don't. Thus, there's no need to give the disceptator that extra vote for the ties, unless, of course, you change the charter again so that ties become a special case. And to that, I say no.
This means that, with 3 magi, you need 2 votes. With 4, you need 3. And with 6, as is the case now, you need 4, period.
"No, I was never confused, you misunderstood what you were proposing, and you're now changing it to be majority. Be that as it may, it is not the matter at hand. It's been well established that you don't like the idea of the office of disceptator. Since you don't like the office, and because you appear to be oldest Hermetically amongst us, in the event Jamie is leaving, then I suggest you take the office to ensure that the power is used sparingly. Additionally, I am happy to entertain discussing changes to the charter, in the future.
"This discussion of changes to the charter is out of order, the matter at hand is the disceptator position. Discussions of changing the charter should be tabled to a later time. We have other significant business to discuss and two of us have religious obligations that we are putting off to discuss these matters. I agree that the matters of governance are important, but they are not urgent. I wish to work with urgent matters now, and then reconvene next Thursday to discuss other matters at length. I suggest that changes to the document aren't as easy to make as you propose, if you remove the office of disceptator, you must adjust the charter in all other areas where the charter mentions the office. Your only proposal so far has been to illustrate your dislike for the office, and then offer one suggestion to a change the charter removing the office of disceptator, and ignoring the many other changes that are then required. My point is not to suggest that I want you to offer other suggestions now, but to suggest that this is a lengthy discussion that can't be completed in one meeting, let alone an hour, especially when other important matters must be discussed. We have to govern ourselves, and the only tool to do that now is the present charter. It is clear that there already three votes against your proposed changes, where only one is necessary for them to fail. I ask you to table this discussion to a later time with the promise that we discuss them in the future under old business.
"I wish to remind you that I have a religious committment to keep. A long discussion is not something I wish to enter into at this time, but I look forward to a full debate of the matter next Thursday. Optionally, we can discuss this at another time, I just wish to move onto more pressing business now. How we govern ourselves is not urgent, but I agree it is important."
[color=red]"Are you?" Cygna asks with a wry smile and a raised brow. [color=red]"For someone who's said how much she enjoys talking about yourself, you have done an admirable job of not answering the question."
She waves her hand dismissively. [color=red]"No matter...by my reckoning, we have at least 23 years to ferret it out of you." She grins playfully.
[color=red]"I agree. And don't forget, the Discaptator's vote to break a tie is a discretionary function...you can always discreetly choose not to."
[color=red]"Aside from our seeming inability to cast an Aegis, is there any pressing matter that can't wait until Thursday, so that you and Azura and your respective families can attend to your other duties?"
"How we are going to cast the Aegis is pretty important and shouldn't be delayed. It may direct labwork we undertake for the coming season. Additionally, there is the dwarven contract, and harvesting the ripe vis sources, those need to be assigned at the very least. Waiting 6 days to decide these things can have a huge impact on lab work undertaken. Should I delay my plans for building a lab, and instead distill vis from the aura in the apprentice's lab? I figure I can extract 4 pawns of Vim, if two people could assist me I figure we could get 6 pawns, enough for the Aegis. Or do we seek out a loan for the Vis from the Mercere?
A thought comes to Ra'am's mind, "Perhaps distilling vis is premature. I don't know Wizard's Communion. Does anyone else? I think we need to solve that obstacle, first. There is a Wizard's Communion text in the library, almost everyone would need to learn it and participate in casting a 6th magnitude Aegis. Azura, can you perhaps create a lab text for your 6th magnitude Wizard's Communion?"
