"And, more to the point, practically speaking we do not have time to have it ratified by Quaesitores if we are to leave on the morning tide. So, for the now at least, it has to be a simple and clear agreement between sodales, between members of the Order. I think that will suffice for this trip, and we can refine it after experience has shown us the reality of the experience."
Scipio seems rather non-plussed, sniffing and wriggling his nose for a moment before continuing. "As it is a matter of pure delegation from our Magus Iohannes here I don't think it would require ratification by Quaesitore. But you are correct in that there is no time to post the document properly much less hear if there are any objections from the Praeco or others. We could at least however have it on it's way."
Again his fingers thrum on the table for a moment, the magus shaking his head. "What I dislike is that such a mere agreement, even if wholly true and sworn to by all among us, lacks any true force of law beyond those of us in the covenant. That, to my logic, requires posting a binding writ with clear delineations of rights and boundary such as may be found on ship. Leaving the matter nebulous is worse than not doing it at all... for it creates in the matter too much room for variable perception and action. Which could engender future conflict we wish to avoid."
Turning towards Iohannes he speaks in a conciliatory tone, gesturing likewise. "It is not my desire to in any way encroach upon you or yours. Merely that if this is to be done, it should be done the 'best' way we can manage. The subinfeudation both has advantages and can be made as limited as you like. As I said, it can exist for and grant merely the right to be a passenger and reside in the common areas of the vessel... with no chance of the onus of a Sanctum. Contrast this with the simple compact version and we, for example, would be in violation if we simply transported ourselves aboard into that common space without your specific leave each time. This would make bearing you messages while away much more difficult. Of course, I'm no seaman. I understand that captains tend to be rather jealous of who may come aboard and when... so perhaps you prefer things that way. If so, I don't blame you or protest. That said... the decision is ultimately yours. I just urge you to not leave the matter a collection of empty yet warm words rich in fraternal intent while lacking in true meaning. It needs must clearly lay out what is and is not agreed to. It could prevent much division between us in the future, and that is always wise."
"That works for me. And if we don't need to involve Quaesitores to satisfy everyone, all the better."
"If we need to publish a document to the Tribunal, I'd rather it be a final version steeped in wisdom and experience rather than an experimental draft. It will be the first time the Tribunal sees us acting as a covenant... and I want us to look good. A document that shows us at anything less than our best will be a calamity for all of us, far worse than any misgivings about rankings among us; it will show us as weak, divided, impatient, inexperienced... and our rivals will try to take advantage of that. We might not even have rivals yet, but we can easily create some."
"If this is a problem of perception, then it's not about law. I'm no Quaesitor, but I have seen no law in the Code or Peripheral Code that says anything but that magi are equal. The only issue of law is whether I have a right to slay you aboard ship or abuse you. And even if I have every legal right to do so, it would be suicide for me. Suicide! No one in the covenant would ever trust me again, and your parens--or his parens, or half of House Tremere--would surely find it trivial to kill me in a completely fair Wizard's War.
"You might find yourself transported into an ingot of steel or a merchant. Or transported into the full view of a baroness on pilgrimage, her priest and her armsmen."
Ah, messages. I think we can create subtler ways to deliver messages, and it's something to think about, good communication in general.
Iohannes nods. "Words have meaning, words have power. We, as magi, understand this better than anyone. I think the fundamental agreement is that I will not lord it over you or use my sanctum rights to abuse you or diminish your status, and you will honor the integrity of my ship and my authority as ship captain, while retaining your full authority as a magus. And we all agree to make sure that none of us comes off looking like a lackey. That's the true meaning. We might need more words, finer words, technical words, but these are details, and we can refine them as we have time."
Vispillius frowns a bit at Scipio's concern, and nods in turn with Iohannes' more practical approach, waving his hand in a gesture of dismissal.
"Short of a Trianoma wishing to present a case for furtherment of the peripheral code, nothing much is to be gained by presenting at a Tribunal. There is ample strength in the writing to be enforceable, tho' doing so does add formality and further mettle to the act. And beyond those of us boarding the ship, no others need be concerned with our Covenant's business, nor our personal and legal agreements in this matter.
"What is any Covenant but a mere agreement, and that is usually quite enough to bind the signees before being stamped, signed and approved by those who have little to say in our matters so long as they do not break the Code.
"If you wish to further detail the rights and limitations, I see no problem with that, but beyond a simple agreement, a precise understanding, there is nothing to be gained but delay. And I am firmly of the belief that the more tightly one tries to define such, the more finely it invites inspection, and the more holes present themselves.
"Call upon language not significantly more complex than that of the Code, and refer specifically to those relevant passages, and it falls under the aegis of our Oaths, and the binding is as tight as needs be."
Scipio seems incredulous, shaking his head and sighing as he begins to return his writing kit to it's leather satchel. "Comrades the entire point is that this declaration go beyond us. We seek to prevent a negative and erroneous perception from being generated amongst our peers. If this becomes a simple compact that stays in our own library it will not achieve that end in any way. Furthermore the onus will remain if the space remains a legal sanctum in regards to our persons. And that simple fact generates the perceptions that we seek to avoid. I don't however envision this as coming to some matter of legal proceeding as long as we don't fight amongst ourselves while on the ship... however, it is the legal formality of it that is important. It is that which alters the perception of others as to our status when within said space. I agree that we do not have time to do the formal declaration properly at this juncture however. That I cede. We should desire the posted document to be as erudite as possible. If we can lay out the intent of our compact perhaps we can have it so reviewed later. I agree that the finer language can wait, as our task has urgency behind it. It can not however wait overlong. That said, I shall not draft the document then. It is not in my habit to arrange things so. I fear I would only get your way Comrades. I will return anon to review your work for my own likes or not." And with that Scipio begins gathering his own gear up, packing things back into his satchel and on his person.
"Well, do not be so hasty to abandon your position, Scipio. I confess my mind is tired from a long day and now a heavy meal I have had, give me a moment to think on this..."
And he does just that, pushing his empty plate away, and, tipping his goblet partially on edge with one finger, rolls it back, and forth, and he ponders the situation more carefully.
Iohannes agrees. "Please stay. I would like to come to an arrangement that works for all of us. It will bode well for us, very well, if we can do that. This is your first day here, and a happy agreement would be most auspicious.
"Here are the needs as I see them, tell me if I have overlooked something:
"I want to consider the entire ship as my sanctum. A ship is a unity, like a person, she all sinks or floats together, she is captained as a whole, sea travel can be dangerous and anything that compromises a ship's wholeness, physically, morally or mystically strikes me as a remarkably bad idea.
"You want other magi to understand that your presence aboard ship in no way signifies that you are a mere assistant or a magus of lesser rank. It would be unseemly for you to compromise the ranking you have earned, or to be seen as less.
"You also want to be sure that I will not take advantage of any legal technicalities and mistreat you.
"Does that about cover it?"
Scipio nods after moment, speaking with some small hesitation. "I begin to see your objection more clearly. I don't view the subinfeudation as 'dividing' the ship, done properly. However... I fully see your point, and why you find it objectionable. However if this agreement does not stipulate which areas of the ship and which activities are acceptable to we guests and which are not... it is more likely to cause strife than accord amongst us." Scipio seems to gather his own thoughts, hands folding over his abdomen in a contemplative way. "As for other items, I agree. The legal status of the vessel, the social status of we passengers, and legal protections for both you and ourselves are most of the concerns. Perhaps all of the truly important items."
Vispilius listens out of the corner of his ear, the goblet coming to a tilted standstill under his fingers.
"For my part, I more clearly see one of your points - an agreement between Sodales within a covenant can be as arbitrary, obscure and random as it need be - we could all agree to wear blue and red on alternate full moons, or owe each other a queen of vis and a boiled rabbit dinner - but that would hardly be something to be proud of. By expanding the definition to include unexpected guests - perhaps this archmage we are to meet, for all we know - by allowing and welcoming it to be held up in the light of the Order as a whole, we add a general validity behind it.
"And, at the same time, save ourselves this conversation in the future with those who may not be as reasonable or cooperative as ourselves."
He cocks an eyebrow at this last, allows the goblet to fall into his waiting hand, and, with a half toast, sips.
Scipio nods in agreement towards Vispilius. "Such had occured to me, yet I was not certain our Comrade would feel comfortable with an arrangement that broad."
"That is a bit broad, especially since we haven't tried it yet. If it works out, we can always extend it. I also think that any agreement we make needs some kind of reciprocity or exchange."
Iohannes steeples his fingers and bows gently to the other magi.
"I'm not a real lawyer--and it might be worth our while to hire a real one to polish and simplify this, and then Perdo Mentem him, naturally--but I've been party to a contract or three in my time and I'll give it a go:
"We, the magi of Lubeck Covenant, recognize that there is a custom in the Order of Hermes that one magus shall not enter the Sanctum of another, for doing so strips him of various rights and protections under the Code of Hermes, and doing so for extended periods of time is considered a sign of subordination.
"We further recognize that we share a common covenant that we have all sworn to uphold, common living spaces and interests that often must be defended in common, even common amity and personal regard, and consequently a periodic need for close and concerted interactions less common among magi who do not share this common bond.
"We therefore agree and wish to let it be known that at times, one magus of Lubeck Covenant might invite another into his Sanctum.
"We covenant that any such invitation, explicitly offered, carries with it the following agreements:
"The hosting magus waives his rights under the Code of Hermes to slay or abuse his guest, but shall treat him with the respect, courtesy and rights due an honored guest and a peer within the Order.
"The guest magus agrees that the host's sanctum, its personnel and accouterments are extensions of the host's magical power, agrees that the host has undiluted authority and command over these as his natural right, and agrees to accord the host the respect, courtesy and rights due to an honored host and a peer within the Order.
"Guest and host magi shall represent to all magi that they are peers as magi, and that any deferences or courtesies exchanged between guest and host magi are those rightful and customary to exemplary guests and hosts."
Iohannes pauses. "It's a bit vague, but I think we are better served by accuracy, not precision."
Scipio frowns slightly, scratching his cheek with one hand. He gestures with his pipe for emphasis when he speaks. "Comrades... we can declare all we like that there are no implications among ourselves. Very nice if you prefer such methods. Yet in this instance wholly lacking in material action to acheive our aim. Not to mention quite general."
As Scipio continues he shakes his head and seems more passionate about his words. " I have no intention of inviting anyone, at this or indeed any time, into my Sanctum once it is properly prepared. I have no expectations of anyone inviting me into theirs either. The ony logical exception is your ship Magus Iohannes. And only because it is a ship. If you were maintaining a sanctum here in our holdfast we would hardly be having this conversation. So. I have no intention to make any such declaration in regards to my Sanctum rights. The only agreement or declaration I see as necessary is in regards to the one situation I see as aberrant... the vessel in question."
Scipio stops for breath, and gestures with a raised finger now, a point to make? "And let us heed that this covenant is not merely about a declaration of our intent. You seem eager to distance the legalities of Sanctum law from the cultural perceptions of our comrades. They are one and the same. This line of thinking is wholly in error. I don't think this declaration, or even one like it but perhaps better wordsmithed, has force enough to change significant opinion. If the space we enter and remain in remains a legal sanctum in regards to us... then the perception and onus will remain. Especially among the elder and more traditional minded of our comrades. Perhaps in particular a concern for me, yet not only me. That is why I sought to frame this in legal terms, as a legal action of some sort, circumventing the sanctum's presence while not nullifying it."
Visplilius takes a great sigh and sits back in his chair, seeming to sink into that sort of relaxation that only can come after a good meal.
"To begin with, Iohannes, it's pure wishful thinking to believe that this agreement is somehow reciprocal. The entire crux is that you have chosen as your sanctum a vessel that you also want to offer as a mode of transportation. If either of us here, or any other mage in the covenant had such a situation to proffer in return, perhaps...
"However, do you forget that this agreement must, practically speaking, embrace all members of the Order, since you cannot predict whom we may wish to invite to join us?
"Therefore, the document must express two things - one, that you must relinquish the usual expectations on a defined part of your Sanctum - one that is, fortunately, overly large by most standards - and , two, that you accept, in reciprocation, a sworn measure of increased consideration by any who travel toward those parts that you have partially relinquished."
He leans his head back, and half closes his eyes in thought... then begins to dictate to no one in particular, not expecting any to scribe, but just for a first effort, commenting as he goes.
"In consideration of the unusual nature of the Sanctum and sailing vessel Santum Mysterium, Iohannes etc etc makes the following offer publicly and openly to any of the Order who would sail on her, such that the unity of the ship is not compromised, but nor do said passengers need fear to be accused or condemned for an act of trespass or submission - (or whatever, etc etc).
"That, in consideration of their desire for surety and some semblance of security, for the duration of their passage only, he cedes some measure of his absolute rights (specifically enumerated) for the duration that they remain welcome aboard... (and here you explain that you will not attack nor unreasonably expel them, etc etc)... lest Iohannes in so doing cause harm or death to a member of the Order, and in so doing break his Hermetic Oath in that regard, etc etc.
"However, in return consideration, any who seek passage upon her do swear upon their Oath (and here we'll need a Quaesitore to help us with the language) that they will neither intentionally cause nor allow harm to the vessel or any part of it in any way, lest that part cause failure of the whole and thus deprive Iohannes of a portion of his magical power, and thus breaking the passenger's Hermetic Oath in that regard, etc etc.
"Further, passengers recognize that a ship perforce lacks the privacy usually afforded a mage, and acknowledges the necessity of such a situation, ceding the right to defend any such, etc etc. However, Iohannes, for his part, acknowledges the expectation to privacy of personal effects, and cedes any right to mundanely manipulate or investigate such within the ceded bounds of the accomodations. Restrictions on magical scrying, as always, are in force."
He drops his eyes back to those at the table, blinking his fae eyes a bit, as if waking from a sleep back to full consciousness.
"I doubt if that's perfect in many ways, but perhaps an acceptable start?"
[OOC: Have we reached some manner of impasse? I hope not. Note that my personal give&take is much greater than Scipio's... 
But debate is good RP! I just hope we can come to some manner of agreement. Otherwise we will be left with a continuity quandary for the adventure thread.
(Tossed out a start, waiting for one or the other to amend it, and around we go!)
Visplilius takes a great sigh and sits back in his chair, seeming to sink into that sort of relaxation that only can come after a good meal.
"To begin with, Iohannes, it's pure wishful thinking to believe that this agreement is somehow reciprocal. The entire crux is that you have chosen as your sanctum a vessel that you also want to offer as a mode of transportation. If either of us here, or any other mage in the covenant had such a situation to proffer in return, perhaps...
"However, do you forget that this agreement must, practically speaking, embrace all members of the Order, since you cannot predict whom we may wish to invite to join us?
"Therefore, the document must express two things - one, that you must relinquish the usual expectations on a defined part of your Sanctum - one that is, fortunately, overly large by most standards - and , two, that you accept, in reciprocation, a sworn measure of increased consideration by any who travel toward those parts that you have partially relinquished."
He leans his head back, and half closes his eyes in thought... then begins to dictate to no one in particular, not expecting any to scribe, but just for a first effort, commenting as he goes.
[color=brown]"In consideration of the unusual dual nature of the legally claimed sanctum and sailing vessel Sanctum Mysterium, Iohannes etc etc makes the following offer publicly and openly to any of the Order who would sail on her, such that the unity of the ship is not compromised, but nor do said passengers need fear to be accused or condemned for an act of trespass or submission - (or whatever, etc etc).
"That, in consideration of their desire for surety and some semblance of security, for the duration of their passage only, he cedes some measure of his absolute rights (specifically enumerated) for the duration that they remain welcome aboard... (and here you explain that you will not attack nor unreasonably expel them, etc etc)... lest Iohannes in so doing cause harm or death to a member of the Order, and in so doing break his Hermetic Oath in that regard, etc etc.
"However, in return consideration, any who seek passage upon her do swear upon their Oath (and here we'll need a Quaesitore to help us with the language) that they will neither intentionally cause nor allow harm to the vessel or any part of it in any way, lest that part cause failure of the whole and thus deprive Iohannes of a portion of his magical power, and thus breaking the passenger's Hermetic Oath in that regard, etc etc.
"Further, passengers recognize that a ship perforce lacks the privacy usually afforded a mage, and acknowledges the necessity of such a situation, ceding the right to defend any such, etc etc. However, Iohannes, for his part, acknowledges the expectation to privacy of personal effects, and cedes any right to mundanely manipulate or investigate such within the ceded bounds of the accomodations. Restrictions on magical scrying, as always, are in force."
He drops his eyes back to those at the table, blinking his fae eyes a bit, as if waking from a sleep back to full consciousness.
"I doubt if that's perfect in many ways, but perhaps an acceptable start?"
"Who would sail upon her by my explicit invitation. There will be times I want privacy, and there may be magi I never wish to have aboard."
"Strike 'intentionally.' That word is not used in any other Hermetic legal document I know of, and in exceedingly few mundane contracts. With good reason. A man--especially a magus--is responsible for what he does. There is no 'I hereby intend to uphold the Code of Hermes, intend to not molest faeries, intend not to scry.' Intention comes into play afterward, if consequences need to be assessed.
"Also, any who take passage under this agreement acknowledge that the ship is my sanctum, despite my ceding some of the customary rights in favor of my invited guests. I want to avoid the possibility of a legal ruling that suggests that by allowing other magi onto the Sanctum Mysterium and waiving my right to slay them out of hand, I have effectively declared that the ship is not my sanctum despite the marker."
"I certainly agree not to peer into your minds or breach your Parma. Yet there are times when I need to peer at various portions of the ship, whether a magus is present or not, and perhaps without warning. My doing so should be understood as peering into my own affairs. And above and beyond anything else we agree to, we agree that I maintain the right of any ship captain to act as needed for the safety of the ship."
"Who would sail upon her by my explicit invitation. There will be times I want privacy, and there may be magi I never wish to have aboard."
"Strike 'intentionally.' That word is not used in any other Hermetic legal document I know of, and in exceedingly few mundane contracts. With good reason. A man--especially a magus--is responsible for what he does. There is no 'I hereby intend to uphold the Code of Hermes, intend to not molest faeries, intend not to scry.' Intention comes into play afterward, if consequences need to be assessed.
"Also, any who take passage under this agreement acknowledge that the ship is my sanctum, despite my ceding some of the customary rights in favor of my invited guests. I want to avoid the possibility of a legal ruling that suggests that by allowing other magi onto the Sanctum Mysterium and waiving my right to slay them out of hand, I have effectively declared that the ship is not my sanctum despite the marker."
"I certainly agree not to peer into your minds or breach your Parma. Yet there are times when I need to peer at various portions of the ship, whether a magus is present or not, and perhaps without warning. My doing so should be understood as peering into my own affairs. And above and beyond anything else we agree to, we agree that I maintain the right of any ship captain to act as needed for the safety of the ship."
Scipio shakes his head in no small disapproval, the charms he wears jingling in the action though he gives them no heed. He raises one hand as if to begin his arguments again then lets out his breath with clear annoyance. The hand that was raised to gesture in emphasis instead clenches and swipes down signaling his anger instead.
"If there were another vessel, I'd be upon it, with the wording so. It must do for now however. This is a task that may not be left undone. Unless there is more I shall go and see to my sergeants until we begin boarding. I think words have ceased to be useful at this point."
The Tremere finishes gathering his gear and stowing it away, as he had been doing before, as he speaks. The actions appear to calm him somewhat. "Forgive my ill humor brothers. We are... different. That much is clear. Peers we may be." A glance is given to Vispilius now. "Yet it seems clear we spring from very different branches of the Order's tree." Now to Iohannes. "Perhaps I've much in the way of these differences to become accustomed to."