a host of more questions

firstly thank you for your time considering this post:

question one: I am playing a bonisagus magus with the virtue "affinity with magic theory". The virtue description indicates that study totals are increased by half for the ability. Would this apply to experience gained through exposure, such as from laboratory work, or from the rare xp award achieved through discovery (a long shot but it could happen)?

Question two: The virtue "free study" indicates that one adds +3 to die rolls when studying from raw vis. Recently I decided to attempt studying from raw vis, as the covenant has no books concerning the art in question. My roll was a delightful 1 followed by another 1 followed by a nine, the covenants aura is 5(magic). So is the math (2x2x9)+3+5=44 or is the math (2x2x{9+3})+5=53?

Question three: So far this saga my magus has done nothing more than study and create longevity rituals (two for other magi, one for a non-gifted redcap, and one for a companion). By studying every book our covenant has concerning magic theory, as well as gaining exposure though lab work, my magus already has a magic theory ability score of 12+2. Is this too high for a magus 19 years out of apprenticeship? Is it too high in general?

Question four: Are there any ways to increase the quality of a book, summa to be precise, via enchantment? Such as a mentem effect that affects the reader? I realize such an enchantment would need to penetrate the readers magic resistance. Or perhaps enchanting creo imaginem effects that display illustrations in extreme depth? Could such effects be invested to improve book quality and would there be a form/shape bonus appropriate?

Again thank you for your time in reading this post. :astonished:

All XP after CharGen comes from "Study Totals" - everything on pages 163-165 are all "Study Totals", even if it's "study by exposure".

The "discovery-XP" (from the Experimentation table?) might be an exception - but rare enough not to worry about. The real trick is to keep the "base" amount accounted for separate from the "+50%" amount.

It's not clearly defined, but I'd say the latter - you are adding to "the roll", which implies the actual number on the die, not "the sum" or "the total".

Well get him off his ass and out doin' somethin'!!!

That's pretty damn high, when compared to your average Saga.

But every Saga (and every mage, and their balance) is different - "too high" has to be taken in context of the way your Troupe rolls.

(Because now 12 in Magic Theory isn't high enough?) :wink:

Again, up to your SG and Troupe. Some books can be improved with careful treatment and restoration - but generally a book has a fixed Quality and Level. That's a section of the expanded rules I'm not as familiar with, and so will pass to others to discuss.

1.) Any XP placed where you have an Affinity is treated like it was 50% higher. The simpler way of doing it is recording base XP and either have actual adjusted XP listed beside it or to use an adjusted chart for XP needed. Source doesnt matter.

2.) 44 is my understanding but looking at it again, either interpretation is possible.

3.) No, unusual perhaps as the time spent increasing MT is time not spent increasing other Arts or Abilities so you now have someone with serious ability in anything using MT, but perhaps not quite so effective elsewhere. Certainly nothing wrong with that. Just fun to have uneven characters.

4.) Cant say for sure but not really no. The books can be glossed or rewritten with better resonant materials IIRC...

all of the comments are my opinion. Your millage may vary.

Exposure XP is not study totals. study total is used when actually studying a book. I am not sure about discovery or adventure XP I will let others debate that.

The formula normally is Roll + Aura. You get a bonus of Roll+aura+3. THe roll was 1-1-9 or 36 plus aura 5 and bonus of +3 for 44 total.

You must have some very good magic theory books plus exposure experience to get 390 xp (260 if you count an affinity) in magic theory. Still if you did get that xp then nope, it isn't too high. I means you are very weak in most other areas.

I don't see a way to improve a book's quality beyond the guidelines found in the covenants book. Admitted, there are ressonant materials, bonus for quality binder, quality illuminator and a few other things but those are when writing it. Improving an existing book is not really possible.

Thank you for you comments and thoughts on my questions. Please allow me to clarify my 4th question a bit though.

It would seem to me (perhaps incorrectly) that a book would be suited to investiture of a creo mentem effect targeting the reader. Admittedly, such an effect would need to penetrate the readers magic resistance. But, if an effect could be instilled that would heighten the ability of the reader to grasp the meaning of the text would that not, in effect heighten the quality of the book? By example, I suggest an effect which heightens the comprehensive abilities of the reader while she is reading the text; the magic is an aid to the reader in this sense much as the virtue book learner is. Or would it be possible to mimic the book learner virtue through a potent creo mentem effect so that those who do not possess that virtue would still get more from the book?

This is my line of thought of the matter:

If the author of a tome has put all he knows into the work, wouldn't it be satisfying for that author to enchant the book so that the reader fully comprehends it?

Again thank you for your time.

Angado wizard of Cymril of the Seven Kingdoms :astonished:

I'd be ok with this in my game. You might cause warping to your reader but that's not the same as saying no. I like the idea of enchanted books, perhaps creo imagonem effects to demonstrate meanings. I think that a simple creo mentem to make the reader really interested in the text would be justification for an increase in quality.

What other people have said so far is true, there is no provision in the published rules for this. But I think that it wouldn't be unwarranted and it could be fun.

I had not considered the warping possibility. That does make for some interesting thoughts concerning the creation of 'cursed' tomes as well. But that is probably for another thread.

Still, even with warping, such an effect could be useful. (At least I think so)

And again, thank you to all who have responded thus far

There is no clear way in the rules to achieve what you're asking. It isn't clear it is at all possible. The closest there is are the rules for book clarifications in Covenants, that do allow a limited (+3) enhancement of quality, at considerable costs and limitations. Covenanats also mentions other works functioning as books in practice, but does not really deal with it mechanically. In short - it's up for your troupe to decide.

No, it's all "study total", there is no debate necessary - read the first real paragraph of the rules cited, page 163-5...."[i]Using Experience Points
Experience points are used to increase Arts and Abilities. A character gains experience points in an Art or Ability when she spends seasons studying it..."The rules then go on to explain what an "Advancement Total" is, and never use the phrase "Study Total" - ever. The rules never add that "there are other ways than Study to gain XP" - clearly it's not being used in the common sense of the word.

However, every source of XP is listed, without weighting or qualification as to being "study" or not.

If all XP come from "seasons studying it", then "Study Total" is in fact any "Advancement Total", regardless of the specific process. There are not "Teaching Totals" and "Practice Totals" and "Reading Totals" and "Learning Totals" - they are all are just "Advancement Totals" - it's all the same.

The alternative would be to keep track of different XP from different sources and multiply one ~some~ of that by 150% - and I do not believe that's the intention of the rules, nor how they read.

In fact, any reference to "Study Total" can be traced back to 4th ed, and wording that simply was not brought up to date with the new study rules (which changed significantly from 4th to 5th.)

The caster of the spell would have to have the understanding that he is trying to impart. Otherwise he could impart the wrong idea/information.

He's got you there Lady P. It is all the same now. They are all study totals and rated as per Source Quality. Just like Spells, which are always Invented now (either fresh, with the use of a lab text, or the guidance of another magus).

Actually it is learning spells from lab text or inventing it from scratch so that difference still exists.

That still doesn't cover the 15 xp from discovery (lab work).

Nope :stuck_out_tongue:, it is Inventing the spell from text or Inventing it from scratch. They are always Invented, never learned.

Yes it does. Its xp gained. Source doesnt matter.

DW - that part is not so clear. That is a lump gift from an outer gallery, not a "Total", not gained by any effort, teacher, exposure, training, practice or anything else. Myself, I would never try to keep the math separate (what a pain!), but, technically, it's not a "Study Total" in any conceivable sense of the term, 4th ed, 5th ed, or other. It's distinctly different from the usual process.

Same if there's an "Explosion" on that same table - the mage "takes the damage" - there is no soak specified because the explosion is not defined. It just happens, maybe with soak, maybe not - suck it up and move on. (Or die with yer boots on - that can be a LOT of damage!)

No, that's 4th ed. Either way is now "inventing", but with a lab text you have a road map.

(Re-)read page 95, col 3, last short par before the Example - "It is also possible to invent a spell based on another magus's Laboratory Text..."
It's all inventing, it's all "Advancement Totals" (aka Study Totals, et al)

Angado wrote:

I think this is already what happens when someone reads a tome. The reader fully comprehends the content - that is basically the default, right? So, if the enchantment depends only on what is written, I don't see how it can improve a study total.

Now there are benefits for being a good student, like, I don't know, apt student or affinity or something, that might increase the study total, but that's a property independent of the content of the book. If you wanted to design a CrMe effect to give someone an ability like this while they read ANY book, if that were possible, then that might give you the extra xp, and it wouldn't be limited to just one book.

Using CrMe to instill knowledge that goes beyond what you get from the text is, I would say, independent of the text, so you probably don't need to connect the two.