Sounds like a case of Wizard's Communion to me. It has happened IMS. Public works are done using the WC construction team. We built a whole harbor in a week doing that. Not that difficult once you get a few friendly mages hanging around and WC.
Xavi
Nope it´s not.
Base is Level 2, less than "forceful but calm" but greater than "extremely gentle", the maga wasn´t moving the water fast or violently in any way(it was when she dropped it and stopped controlling it, down on the mountainside and over the valley on the other side of the mountain that it got violent, her magic had nothing at all to do with that).
Unnatural +2M, D: Concentration +1M, R: Sight +3M (sitting on a mountaintop looking down at the lake on one side, really hard to reach that with touch you know), IIRC the base individual we used then was somewhere around 10cbm for water... And probably +6 to size. Giving ten million tons of water for a level 50 spell.
2->4->5->20->50
I may not recall exactly correct but something like that. A few sqkm of water about 2-3m in height is not something to play around with.
Might have been easier. But noone knew what the player was going to do until after she had done it. :mrgreen:
The SG at the time was rather miffed because he had had plenty of plans for what to do with that force(or its survivors, especially the magic users that were part of it), and as far as he knew, noone had any spells that could one-shot kill it. oops
I guess I don't see moving 2-3km of water moving quickly as not unnatural or violent, period. Are we saying that she targeted the lake and then slowly moved the contents from one place to another? It's not exactly forceful but calm, as it is moving water against the flow of gravity. It is also extremely unnatural.
In any event, there's a bit of a disconnect here, how is the troupe going to take to these changes that are being proposed? Was there any discussion of this at the troupe level when the player did it?
And it didn't occur the SG to say that, due to its massive effects, such a spell needed to be a ritual?
I am puzzled when people complain of the huge power of Hermetic Magic while forgetting that spells deemed too powerful can be required to be rituals even if under lvl 50.
I recall on the army killer spells thread, someone made a very sensible suggestion along the lines of "any spell with more than +3 size (IIRC) should be a ritual".
While probably not always appropriate, it is IMO not a bad idea at all.
That IS a nice guideline. I generally find the size bonuses too easy; I would be on board with anything more than +2 (because really, affecting 1000 times the standard Individual should be a Ritual, don't ya think?!). And I completely support the suggestion, upthread, to increase the difficulty of affecting large targets.
I find WC too powerful and not well-written, but it really becomes annoying with things like Life-Linked Spontaneous Magic or Diedne Magic, or with Casting Tablets. But it's a matter of taste - for a high-powered saga, I suppose being able to do just about anything would actually be a feature.
That is a very good point!
While I am not fond of SG fiat, I think this is a good example of one place where it might be necessary.
Part of me likes this and part of me hates this. I'd rather go with the option above and have a serious discussion with the players at the table about the need for such a spell of moving 2-3 km of water being a ritual, and not formulaic.
Adjusting the scale at which a magus can successfully cast a spell and cast one without fatigue isn't going to solve the problem of being able to move a body of water easily. And it makes a lot of other things much worse. The Magus who casts Doublet of Impenetrable Silk or The Wizard's Leap and these are not of the magus's main Technique and Form combinations is actually rather important and something that needs to be taken into consideration. Many magi master The Wizard's Leap for fast casting. Under the regime where one must meet or exceed Spell Level + 10, The Wizard's Leap needs a CT of 35 (with requisites) to be able to Leap away and not lose fatigue. Even to cast the spell successfully the magus needs a CT of 25, which when you factor in requisites is pretty hard.
I still stand by my position that moving a lake in 6 seconds is necessarily violent and extremely unnatural and a Base 20 makes the starting level really high, adding sight and size +6 makes this a ritual spell.
Again I say this depends entirely on style of play. I've never had a magus in any of my sagas even take these spells, much less consider them essential or put any effort into mastering them.
This I agree with... but again, it's a style of play issue. Each storyguide and troupe determines which guidelines are necessary and applicable for the spells the characters in the saga invent. Sure, we can argue why we think our answer is the better one but there isn't actually one right answer. That's the great thing about the game... the basic rules are solid enough to support a variety of styles of play, and strong enough to withstand the mad array of house rules that can be introduced by individual troupes to make them even better match their preferred style. I love this game. 
Speaking of House rules and a "less powerful Order" I have another one which I forget, mostly because I forgot it's a house rule. 
Ceremonial Magic
Base casting total: Com + Tech + Form + Magic Lore (which is MT in my rules) + modifiers + die.
You can use Ceremonial Magic to cast either formulaic or spontaneous spells. It must be used to cast ritual spells. When casting spontaneous spells, the standard rules for fatigue and diving the casting total apply. As with formulaic magic, you can use the shape/material bonus from one item to add to your ceremonial magic casting total.
Coupled with Arts as Abilities, the idea is that a wizards most powerful spells will regularly be cast as ceremonial magic. Formulaic magic is for quick "I-need-to-cast-this-now!" utility spells. This increases the incentive even more to invest in Magic Lore/Theory.
An associated idea I'm toying with is to make learning spells easier, so that magi can learn spells beyond their lab total, so that the focus bonus, aura and die roll add to more than just penetration.
Nice. Quite similar to what I had in mind, even if I think my design was not as clearly put.
Regarding easier to learn spells. Easy and perfectly OK. Double spell learning formula. Invent spoells up to full lab total. Study from lab texts at 2xlab total. Will make formulaics MUCH more common.
Incidentally I thought about something like that for a "harry potter style" ars. No spontaneous casting, but learning spells would be much easier. I was thinking more along the lines of 3xlab total. Coupled with low casting totals, that makes low level spells very common, but still requires ceremonial for the big stuff (low casting total).
I was actually thinking of going all the way, since I'm lifting a lot of my conception for magic from the Learned Magicians in Hedge Magic, and having learning spells be 5 x Lab Total. To balance it a little, spells would be a bit more specific rather than generic... the Core rules have always seemed a little inconsistent on that. But yeah, Xavi, I think we have very similar visions. Low casting totals, common low level spells, ceremonial spells for big stuff.
I would also allow learning spells with Adventure Exp, as with the Cantations rules from Apprentices, but at a cost of 1 magnitude per exp point to reflect the ease of learning spells. I'm tempted to also allow you to learn spells using Art study totals, at the same rate, based on the rules for learning Natural Philosophy Formulae.
I agree, it is a function of style of play. But you don't have magi who have taken Doublet of Impenetrable Silk or The Wizard's Leap? These spells are incredibly useful in combat...
Totally agree that it's a style of play issue. I find it confusing that the troupe will accept this house rule when they allowed this spell. I try and think long and hard about the unintended consequences of House Rules. I like the troupe to discuss them and really hash them out and develop a consensus, if possible.
You mean... there are mages out there that go outside of their lab WITHOUT preparing with those!?!?!? Wow.
Yes, it is a style of play. Our PCs tend to go out quite well armed and armoured, even if it is not evident to mundane eyes. Doublet, aura of ennobled presence and fast cast wizard leap and/or invisibility supported by rise of the feathery body have been part of the basic package of almost every magus that we have played for quite a while. Some of those are even useful outside combat.
Xavi
To the best of my recollection I have never, not once, in any of my sagas seen a magus in play who even knew either of these spells much less used them on a regular basis. I seem to recall one NPC, I thnk he was a Redcap, who had a tunic enchanted with Doublet of Impenetrable Silk but since he was never attacked during a session, it never came up.
Edit: Though in my current saga Spasms of the Uncontrolled Hand is quickly becoming the gold standard for: "You pulled a knife/sword/axe/whatever on me? B**ch, please!"
I should have posted an "internal joke warning". Jordi and Laura (2 of the 3 othe rpeople in my troupe) read the forums even if they never post. Since the adventuring group we tend to see in our sagas leaves an special ops delta team cowering in shame for their amateur approach to warfare and forceful negotiation I was just playing tongue-in-cheeck to them. 8)
Spasm is certainly a useful spell. It is great to cast it at sight range across the hall to have the local baron that you despise throw his mug of ale on the chest of the lord's wife when he plans to make a toast.
Cheers,
Xavi
Can´t you just please READ correctly first at least?
Why oh WHY do you think the spell had DURATION CONCENTRATION!!!
Maybe, oh lets just guess wildly, maybe because it was a slow moving thing that took longer than 1 round? And unnatural was already accounted for in case you missed that as well.
We ran rules on a very flexible basis(because we were also already used to running games of Battletech, Mechwarrior(rpg), B5W, tournament style Axis&Allies, SRR, chess, stratego, D&D etc, all games with their own issues needing to be fixed without killing the playing; also including some games me or my friend made). That first big campaign was really the only one that went without serious use of HRs.
Why would anyone question what this player did? She did it perfectly by the rules, and a maga not far from two HUNDRED years out of apprenticeship doing the occasional BIG spell? That´s expected, not bad.
I just think he/she must have rolled amazing. I do not care whose calculations you use: for a spont it is just awesome stuff if no wizard's communion was being used.
Xavi
Alright, let's break it down to the closest spell to what's been described. In my opinion that's Push of the Gent Wave. That's a Base 4, and it's a stretch to call this the closest. I do not see how one can use a Base 1 guideline to cause water to move against the flow of gravity. Also, most (all?) of the spells from the main rule book seem to target a specific piece of water and have it do something for concentration duration, not move parts of it for as long as one is concentrating as the effect you've described does. Based on how this was done here, I'm curious about the maga's concentration score. But essentially, and as I see it in RAW this spell isn't possible as you describe it. It's much closer to Neptune's Wrath which is a ritual spell. In short, you're trying to fix something based on what I think was an incorrectly defined and under level spell.
Again, I don't think it is within the rules. I stand by my earlier base 20. Moving a volume of water the size of +6 from point A to B should not be Concentration duration, but should be Momentary, and everything added up makes it sufficiently large to make it a ritual. BIG spells are, by definition rituals, IMO.
Edit: Also, Neptune's Wrath is ritual for ritual for large effect. (Fixed some quoting tag issues.)
He can use concentration no problem. Why should be Momentary to hoover a large body of (whatever) from here to there? There are quite a few spells to move / change / push stuff around in the Terram section with a concentration duration. It still comes down to a level 50 spont spell or so, so I see no problem here. He just rolled like hell and managed something on the limit of his abilities. I know for sure that our characters could do that at the end of our saga, but certainly not at the start.
However, I would appreciate this debate taking place elsewhere of necessary Thx.
Xavi
Well, it's pertinent to the discussion here because if one is designing a magic system on an incorrectly designed spell, then that's a problem. I'm not saying you are, or that this thread isn't useful or interesting, despite it having veered off track. My comments have been more in the light of well, if you reduce X, you're going to possibly break Y when you do Z. If one is reducing X because of a misunderstood application of the spell guidelines, then fixing X because you're doing Z and Z is wrong to begin with is going to create much more difficult problems. If someone adopts Direwolf's changes because they think doing X is too easy, than they need to reconsider that X being too easy is a matter for debate.
I don't think the Rego rules were properly applied, and I'm not aware of any spells which allow one to affect part of a target and move it slowly over time. Rego affects the entire target all at one time.