A less powerful order of hermes, a more S&M magic system

Games Discussion Ars Magica
101

And what makes a magus selling his services as a method of vis collection wrong? It may seem gauche or déclassé to many magi, but I'm sure there are enough (in an Order of 1200) where he could go out and about selling his services, collecting the vis and materiel necessary to study his Art as necessary. Indeed the magi engaging in commerce arguments could include 'well, you make deals with the fae for that vis you use, don't you? How am I doing anything different?' While specialists selling their services in the Order may be the fringe of your Order, it is entirely reasonable that this is not the case in other sagas. In the context of a less powerful Order of Hermes, said specialists would not come cheap, and of course caveat emptor.

I seem to be detecting a subtle undercurrent of my saga is doing it the right way and your saga isn't, and maybe that's why I'm debating this a bit more vehemently. Ultimately good story-telling is about putting obstacles in front of characters and having them solve them. If obstacles that appear to involve commerce and can be easily solved with vis/money the story could be the exchange or the story could be what happens after the exchange...

So, here's an interesting story nugget. Magus is selling himself....who's buying, and how is it destroying the Order. Which major covenants have a secret shame? Here's a clue, they almost all do in some way, certainly the archetypes from each of the Houses have some vested interest in commerce geared to their specific interests. Do Verditius magi sell their wares? (Because I can't imagine a Verditius who doesn't sell his stuff!) Does Durenmar sell access to the great library? Does House Mercere sell information, or at least get paid for the transport of information? Does a (rogue?) member of House Tremere sell himself to be a certamen champion? Does House Guernicus get paid to conduct an investigation (it's been suggested in some of the books that they receive an honorarium from the plaintiff and the respondent/defendant). Does a Flambeau called on to be a Hoplite get paid for that service, or does he do it for the good of the Order, and take the spoils, getting paid on the back end. House Jerbiton will sell Art to anyone who wants to buy, Bjornaer will pay to keep their wild places, Criamon will pay for interesting mysteries and puzzles. Merinitae bargain with the fae all the live long day. Tytalus, well there's conflict in trade, subtle though it may be.

102

Truthfully, my model is intended to support generalists over specialists. If you are Wise, you study everything.

103

If I recall correctly, it is very hard to die of old age rather than twilight, you'd have to be very careful.

Casting tablets make it way too easy for good magi to project their specialty. Someone else can do it, but has to steer from his specialisation to be able to, thus lessening the efficiency of his own specialisation.

I consider magi to be artists or researchers. Researchers prefer to research for the sake of research, and the most passionate can do so, artists are said to sell out if they make their art to order, instead of for the art. A Verditus magus might have quite some items for sale, but he'll have for sale what he wanted to make. A Bonisagus might have a few high level spells for sale, but they cannot be made to order. The source books don't agree with me on this, but I think it would better reflect the order as I would like to see it.
You can hire another magus to do something for you, but you'll have to travel there, convince him/her, travel back with the other magus/maga and have him/her perform the spell. The magus will probably lose the season, or claim to, and have you pay for it.
The large part is not paying the magus, it is convincing him/her to perform something for you, at that moment, you are his superior (you give the assignment). That stings.
This might be less so with someone performing something for you in his/her own lab, but still there is an assignment the artist has to perform according to the wishes of the customer.

104

With one significant adjustment to your phrasing, you are not wrong. IMO, my saga is doing it right and the source books, like Covenants, aren't. I feel very strongly that this concept of Hermetic economy and the hiring of specialists, which has appeared as an underlying assumption in many source books, detracts from the basic "feel" of Mythic Europe to the determent of the game. The Ars Magica that I want to play is: "Medieval Europe where the folklore and magic they believed in is real. There are faeries under the hills, dragons in the mountains, saints performing miracles, demons tempting souls, and wizards in the tower on the hill... and you get to play those wizards." That was how the game was sold me and that is the game that I enjoy.

I admit, I'm looking at the world through the lens of Arthurian romance and the Mabinogion... a world of chivalry, honor, heroism, love, lust, tragedy and a lot of violent death. This vision of Hermetic economy and the hiring of specialists does not "feel right" to me under that model. It doesn't feel "mythic and medieval." It doesn't sound like the sort of thing Merlin or Math, Gwydion or Cerridwen would do. It doesn't sound right to the setting.

That's not to say that you can't run a saga where this kind of Hermetic economy exists. However, I feel that it has become the default assumption of the game and I truly believe that is bad. It has led to an escalation of power for the Order and the primacy of the magical specialist. I have no need to study Corpus because I can hire a longevity specialist. I have no need to study Vim, because I can just buy a Aegis of the Hearth casting tablet. It assumes that all magi are at their hearts merchants... and that isn't what magic is.

So yes, forget subtle undercurrent... I am saying it flat out. On the subject of Hermetic economy, I believe my saga is truer to the basic concept of the game than is the setting as defined by the source books. Naturally, you are free to run your game in any way that you like.

.. and that's my problem. That is a very modern, 20th century... hell, pure 1980's... view of human behavior, as stated by a fictional character who represents an unfettered cyberpunk style mega-corp society. That isn't the medieval Europe of Arthurian romance, folklore and fiction.

105

Making a casting tablet may isn't necessarily so cheap. It requires the specialist to have mastered the spell, in addition to learning the spell (a season of practice, at least) and subsequently a season to write out the casting tablet. There is a considerable time investment that there that someone selling one would be interested in recapturing the value of...somehow.

If you and I are negotiating for me to perform a service for you and I agree to your terms, I am not your subordinate. I am only required to complete the terms we have negotiated, which may or may not include the method I execute the contract. If you're coming at me with an aura of superiority and thinking that because I'm performing a service for you means you get to tell me what to do, I'm going to put things into a written contract validated by a Quaesitor (increasing the cost, because, hey I now have to pay him for services) and including terms of severance and dictating how I will perform the requested services, including dates of completion as necessary to the particulars. Maybe, if I've done this enough I have some boilerplate that I've already taken the effort to have written up by a Quaesitor to keep advantage on my side and you have to go to another Quaesitor to understand the terms of the contract, or we negotiate a specific contract, including our representatives and increasing fees. This negotiation and hiring advisors for contracts isn't as anachronistic as you might think it is...

106

And there's nothing wrong with any of those things, but real Europe was engaged in trade, and a lot of it.

Again, I'm going to go back, people of all kinds can exist in your saga, and the majority of people can find those who engage in commerce gauche or déclassé, but there's something interesting in exploring the hypocrisy to me there. People holding themselves to be artists and noble and pure all of a sudden coming to the sad conclusion that they really aren't any better than those they are looking down upon.

IMO, it's an assumption of the game, because it was endemic of the times. There was a lot of trade at the time. If you put Magi in that environment, they are going to look a lot like that environment. I'm not trying to speak for any of the writers, but they study history, and so it's not surprising that the Order looks commercial and has commercial elements in it.

Actually, it's not at all modern. If you accept the aphorism: Prostitution is the world's oldest profession, it is implicit in that statement that something existed to be exchanged for a price. The very term for soldier is derived from a Roman word meaning one who must be paid, if I recall... Commerce is part and parcel of Mythic Europe, and if the Order is not engaging in it, then they surely aren't being true to their patron. :smiley:

107

[strike]Johnathan, I think we are never going to agree and the discussion has become pointlessly circular. Fortunately, there is a simple solution for that. Live and let live. Adieu. :slight_smile:[/strike]

Edit: Strike that... my brain just took this someplace else interesting...

108

You know what I just realized...

I'm looking at Arthurian romance, the Mabinogion... the folklore and mythology of the day... the Mythic part of Mythic Europe.

Sure, there is trade. Sure, there is a growing merchant class, nobles are as concerned if not more concerned with how to profit from their estates, etc. That's the history... let's call it the Europe part of Mythic Europe.

It's interesting that, in my saga, I am more interested in dealing with mundane's interacting with the supernatural (my current saga has no PC magi at all) and includes a lot of scenes from history (we're about to have a lot of fun with the fall out from the death of William Rufus) but at the same time, my Mythic Europe is much more reflective of the folklore rather than the reality. I'm not interested in economics, trade and mercantile practice. I'm interested in mythology, folklore and magic. My nobles are honorable or cruel, almost universally bloody and violent, but they are knights and ladies who would probably fit comfortably into an Arthurian tale (and, depending on your image of history, might have fared poorly in the real world). I think may game is halfway between Pendragon and Ars Magica.

That, I think, helps explain the disconnect between Johnathan and I. I must ponder this further (but I still think I'm right :slight_smile: ).

109

And I am interested in trade and economics, I have an accounting degree after all. And Ars was designed for accountants, wasn't it?!
I'll play the game the players are interested in playing. If we want to get into the minutia of trade, sure, I'm there. If they want to go after dragons, yup, sure, there too. Level mountains, sure, but just realize that's going to have a cost that you probably can't pay when it comes do... There's room for it all in Ars, truly. If the books focus on trade, again, it's a function of the environment. Covenants need vast sums of money to keep operating, that means trade. They probably lend their magic to that to make more money. If they do it for cold hard silver, why not do it for vis?

Mythology and folklore and magic are all great, too. Why can't someone add commerce to the mix? The fairie smith who agrees to fix the wagon for the grogs, and his price is the first born child, which he will collect when the Magi discover he's Gifted... he's a favored grog, he makes the covenant a lot of money. I like to think that I can weave any story from the threads of before me. If I take commerce out of the picture, it's one less thread for me to weave. Ultimately power level and the nature of the game is one of game contract, and that is going to be determined by all the participants in the game...

110

Don't think so really.
Maybe engineers though, it works great for engineers.

111

I'm interested in history and mythology. My degrees are in history and religious studies. I hate accounting. So I disagree entirely that Ars was designed for accountants... and I think that attitude is part of what is wrong with source books like Covenants. I always liked the fact that Ars Magica did not have a "cash" system like D&D.

112

Jordi is our local munchkin, that detects the areas where he can abuse the system to skyrocketing limits.
Jordi is an engineer.

I think that statement holds, yes.
No accountants among us, though, so I cannot check that.

In general, a game designed for lawyers or accountants is not what I relish though. I prefer one written by someone mad about new age nonsense stuff. Flow baby, flow. Less rules, more ambience.

Xavi

113

Well both professions are extremely detail-oriented.

History...isn't trade a part of history? Aren't some myths stories about grand bargains gone wrong? A lot of people I have gamed with have tended to like the nitty-gritty and working the logistics systems. Again, there's room for everything. And I should've included the :laughing: tag above when I said something about it being designed for accountants.

amul, a user here on the forums has said, and I'm paraphrasing so I don't have to go look for the exact quote, Ars Magica is the system for kids who didn't get enough homework in high school. It doesn't have to be, of course, feel free to throw handwavium powder about and ignore lots of things, but some people do dig that kind of thing. It's all cool man. :smiley:

114

Magic could be a trade. Really, it all comes down to what version of fictional magicians we want our games to reflect. The only fiction I can think of offhand that presents specialized wizards offering commercial services is Harry Potter but there are surely others if I thought harder, and anyway I do like the Harry Potter books. However that is definitely not the feel I'm going for in Mythic Europe. I'm more inspired by the sources that LuciusT is talking about.

This is really a matter of personal taste. What's objective is the fact that more magical commerce leads to more powerful magi and a more powerful Order. That seems indisputable to me and is something people who are concerned about power levels should bear in mind.

115

Yes, commerce existed. So did denim. It doesn't mean they had blue jeans.

Let's look at the history and folklore of wizards a little... Can you tell me of a time when Merlin traded a longevity ritual to Morgan la Fey for a years supply of newt eyes? :slight_smile: Can you recount me the story of what Gerbert de Aurillac traded to the Moorish sorcerer from his grimoire? :slight_smile: Can you share with me the incidences of Michael Scot swapping potions with other wizards? :slight_smile:

To say that trade existed historically does not mean that the Hermetic economy as implied and stated in the source books necessarily follows. In fact, it overlooks a whole rich and complex tradition of folklore and history surrounding occult practices in Europe. I think that by not doing more to actively incorporate the rich "history" of medieval and renaissance magic into Ars Magica, beyond that which is touched upon in Mysteries and Ancient Magic, and instead making up something which stands completely outside of the setting, Ars Magica missed an great opportunity.

116

We are talking about the Order of Hermes. We are talking about a collective group of magi who come together and decide to share information, who become a political force, or at least have internal politics and pressures. Ars Magica takes place in Mythic Europe... That place is like Europe, but not. I cannot imagine a Mythic Europe with the Order of Hermes that has cobbled together 1200 magi as a political force not having some internal commerce. We have too much mentem vis, says the Flambeau, we need some ignem, let's find someone to trade with. Yes, i'm arguing from what I perceive to be the canon of the published books, you are not. I'll argue, and you've about said it, that you aren't playing Ars Magica, or at least are playing something closer to Pendragon than Ars Magica.

Do the wizards of folklore exist in Mythic Europe? Sure, but they've been mostly wiped out by an organized force saying Join or Die, accumulating all the wealth and materials they used to use and spreading it around Europe more efficiently than was done before. Again, if you're playing Ars, and you want to ignore commerce, that's fine. If you want to include commerce, but you're afraid it is going to overpower your saga, you need to ratchet up the transaction costs. If you want the magi in your saga to do it themselves, you need to make the 'make or buy' argument come out to make 90% of the time and the 10% of the time they do buy, it's gonna cost them...big time, probably more than it's worth, and probably not getting exactly what they paid for. To say commerce is bad because it increases power levels is a simplistic view. I'm saying if you want a less powerful Order of Hermes, don't jettison commerce, make it more expensive/difficult to engage in regularly, and it's not all that hard to do, and the particulars will vary based on the available resources of the covenant...

117

So you're saying that the Order of Hermes is antithetical to the idea of Mythic Europe as defined as "Europe where the myths and folklore of the Middle Ages is real"?

I disagree. I think you can have an Order of Hermes that is true to the magicians of folklore... it just can't be the Order that is depicted in Houses of Hermes and Covenants.

118

No, I'm saying everything is turned up to 11.

119

We have known that the weak link in Mythic Europe is the Order of Hermes for quite some time. This is the origin of all the "let's downgrade them a lot" ideas that we float. This is because the OoH as described does not fit ME neither in philosophy (it is too modern) or in the impact that they should have in the setting. When the order develops all its power and potential is when the suspension of disbelief tends to come crashing down. Been there, done that. Loads of fun, but looked more like a grand soap opera than Ars after the mage were 50 in hermetic terms or so. When your guard dog is a dragon and "to go hunting" means releasing the Wild Hunt for a night of revelry stuff tends to be somewhat tongue in cheek.

Xavi

120

But see, why do they have a dragon? Who let them have the dragon? At some level the SG/troupe decided that was OK. Every SG/troupe needs to decide for their saga, or a specific saga, how much commerce exists. I've been saying this pretty consistently. If you say Hermetic commerce doesn't exist, then I'll argue you don't have an Order of Hermes in Mythic Europe, so drop the Order/politics stuff and just use the system and substitute stuff in. I have a lot of fun with commerce stories. Go some place, meet new and interesting people, buy their stuff, have my stuff stolen, lose stuff, grogs get kidnapped, are all part of stories related to commerce. If you want a less powerful Order, then increase the cost of everything. As LuciusT said, Ars doesn't have a cash system. It doesn't even have a vis currency system, these things must be created by the SG/troupe... If you don't like that stuff can be bought so easily, then it is just too cheap, increase costs accordingly.