A problem with Spell Containers

I'm toying with the idea of a limited duration spell container, to hold spontaneous spells cast in advance with ceremonial casting and LLSM, allowing the character to prepare some spells in advance "in case of", and release them when needed, having rested fully since the casting.

So I'm settling for an item with Moon Duration holding.

Problem is, as far as I understand, with Touch range, this'd hold a spell for moon duration in any thing touched by the ring. So, theorically, an infinite number of items.
Although the risk of botches mean this won't be the case, I'm uncomfortable with this, as, at the core, I wanted one effect to hold one spell.
Of course, that's easy to achieve: Range personnal is enough, considering the restriction of Watching Ward apply (and IMO, they should). But that's so less efficient that I'd like an idea as to why the R: Touch version isn't done. Any idea?

How do you get the spell out of the container before the moon duration expires. Watching ward has a special duration that lets it release the held spell when it's conditions are met. Any other duration effect should just delay a spell until it's expires.

Unless I'm wrong, the watching ward special duration is that it's theoretically permanent. A kind of "Until" duration that slipped it into standard hermetic magic. Anyway, a contained doesn't delay a spell until it expires, it holds one to be released (Hum, wasn't there some use of that in the mysteries?)
Also, even if going by your interpretation, concentration duration with item maintains concentration solves this, but not my problem :-/

So, you want to make a magic item that can be touched to another item, making that other item capable of holding a spell? That spell would then be cast into it, turning that item into a temporary charged item?

I got four problems with that.

First, I don’t accept that Watching Ward is only a ritual to accomplish holding the spell indefinitely. I think changing when a spell is triggered is plenty difficult enough to justify ritual magic. Which means no magic items that do that.

Second, I don’t think that spells that modify how any random spell would resolve can be built into magic items. In the section on MuVi, it explains that MuVi spells need to be tailored to the details of the spell they are supposed to effect and thus MuVi spells built into items can only modify spells built into the item. I don’t read that as being only a limitation on Muto magic, it is a limitation on how spells affecting other spells work.

Third, the reason that MuVi spells are not allowed to affect spontaneous spells would seem to apply here as well, only more so.

Fourth and finally, If the effect of magic item A is to cause Ordinary Item B to be able to hold a spell, Ordinary Item B is the target of a spell, not a magic item. Thus, Ordinary Item B can’t maintain concentration, that is something magic items do, not spells.

So, maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to do, but I don’t think it should work.

You misunderstand me.

First, this is a Rego Vim effect using that general guideline, not a MuVi effect, so AFAIK, it is fine with spontaneous magic:
Create a conduit or container for spells with level less than the level + 5 magnitudes of the Vim spell
I use this corebook guideline, and, IIRC, it's been stated already that the ritual is for the potentially infinite duration, and nothing else.

Second, I don't want it to create containers left and right, I want one item to be able to hold one spell, period. But, if you give the effect range: touch, you create a container in something for the spell's duration. This is so much more efficient than what I want, at the cost of a simple magnitude, that I wonder what reasons there may be for that not to be.

Hum... Consider this spell (pure coïncidence, this is fun), using the same guideline, with duration Sun:

This uses the guideline I mentionned, the one used by Watching Ward, with range personnal and duration sun.

I wanted an item with a similar effect (save that the conditions wouldn't include the casting of another spell), the only difference being moon duration. So far, everything's fine.

Problem is, if you do like with the watching ward, and give it a R: Touch duration, you then create a container in something else. So, so long as the items are different, you can keep on creating containers. This isn't an huge problem with D: Dun (although it lets you equip your grogs with an host of one-shot magical items), but it is one with duration: moon, as the increased duration means you can stockpile some more, so instead of having one item holding one spell, I could make, say, 10 different containers.

The guideline for container spell says it holds the spell for a specific length of time and then releases it. So I read that as the stored spell goes off when the duration expires. I think watching ward's special duration is like an until duration from faerie magic thats the result of one time research. (allowable by spell design rules pg114) The sort of thing done to incorporate legacy spells. It's way easy because it adds no difficulty but since the spell is ritual and a legacy I'm willing to say it balance's out.

Also the target is individual so it holds just one spell at a time.

The example spell you gave seems to interpret the rules differently from my understanding. I posted to that discussion to see if there is something I'm missing.

For what you want I think an item that has target touch duration concentration and maintains it's own concentration would work great.

I can add a little insight from experience into this and suggest you look at Harnessed or Mutantum Magics.

The ability to cancel a spell at near whim is very useful. My Mutantum magus has a spell-jar type spell which contains spells until the spell ends at which point said spell is then released. If this spell happens to be a Cr/ig spell, things aren't going to go too well for him if he has a few of them on his person at sunset(rise).

now say a bolt was a jar for an ignem spell called lesser conflagration Cr/Ig 20 (T/M/I) which does + 5 damage in an individual fire 100 times that of a standard ignem individual (5 (+5 damage in an unusual shape)+ 1 Touch + 2 size).

The bolt lands near a group of soliders. The bolt does no damage as a miss. The Caster cancels/releases the spell jar and woomph one 100 individual conflagration.....


No. I've written the guideline above. All it says is "Create a conduit or container for spells with level less than the level + 5 magnitudes of the Vim spell".

Now, we've got one exemple spell using that guideline, with a Special Duration, and it's watching ward.
Watching ward ritual nature is specifically stated to be required to support its potentially infinite duration, but that's all. Specifically, it has nothing to do with the fact that the spell is released when a specific set of conditions are met. If it was supposed to be "Until" duration, that'd have been written instead, especially as it was simpler and perfectly clear to write "Duration: Until".

Yes and no (A watching ward can include multiple spells).

The problem is not here.

A watching ward is range: touch, because you create a container in something else. If you wanted to create one in your body, it'd be Range: Personnal.

This is, in fact, what I wanted: An item with a Personnal Range container, able to hold one spell at a time (as per the limitation that a given thing can only support one spell container at a time), for moon duration.
That'd make, IIRC, say, a base lvl 25 effect for an item that holds a lvl 20 spell (Base 10, + 3 magnitude), which is perfectly reasonnable IMO.

If you make that effect Range: Touch, you can create containers in various items, like the ward does, for a lvl 30 effect. And now, suddenly, my item allows me to have, for exemple, a dozen small stones, each holding one lvl 20 container.
Do you understand my problem? Although one might say that this is no more "broken" than the size increase modifiers (see the Army killer thread making ample use of these, or even just Andrew W spell above).

Nop, it can't since the target is individual.

Nop. it's touch because the magic to be hold is always at touch when it's your own, voice when it's not (see Muto Vim box which clarify acting on spells, and that goes for Rego or Perdo aswell).

The Watching Ward can hold multiple spells, so long as the sum of the levels of all the spells being held under Watching Ward is below the level of the Watching Ward spell. That is how you get spells which are triggered by other spells, for instance, a Philim of Fire which is triggered by someone triggering a Frosty Breath of the Spoken Lie. As I understand it, the Watching ward creates a container that holds a certain magnitude of effects. The container is the target of the spell, and only one container is being created no matter how much is placed in it, so the target is individual.

I stand by my four reasons given above why I would not allow such an item in my game. I realize that the proposed item is a ReVi effect rather than a MuVi effect, but the explanation for why those limitations exist for MuVi items and spells apply equally here.

Oh yes, the spell description is... weird. But RAW ^^

Yes but then it explains what a conduit and a container are. For a container it says

Yes but Until is only available to faerie magicians and watching ward is a legacy spell anyone can learn. I kind of think that watching ward's ability to release on a specific set of conditions is a bit more then what the general guidelines allow for. To me that's explainable by the special duration since there are no other extra guidlines for the spell.

Yes it does seem to be that watching ward is targeting an object to hold the spell rather then the spell itself.The spell makes more sense that way.