A Question on Elemental Magic

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

I'm trying to work out the functioning of Elemental Magic.

A Magus with elemental magic creates a spell - let's say a personal ward against all elements. He adds to his base ReIg spell an Auram requisite, Aquam requisite, and a Terram requisite. Each one adds a magnitude to the basic spell. The Elemental Magus can ignore these additions in his , I assume, as it notes in the virtue that "there is no disadvantage to adding elemental form requisites to any elemental spell".

Is this spell now different levels for different casters? I'm a little fuzzy on how this aspect of the virtue is implemented between casting and spell invention.
Can only elementalists cast that spell at the same level as the Elemental Magus who invented it?

2

I would never permit such a spell, insisting that each effect is radically different form the other thus requiring a seperate spell rather than simply being a requisite.

With regards to the particular virtue, I hought it applied to casting requisites not actual spell level determination. i.e. yoiu don't have the 'lowest art applies' penalty when calculating casting total.

3

That is my understanding as well.

4

Is this a case of the virtue description being a bit vague?

5

Well, maybe not, is is thought by spirits or relatively elemental beings like jinns and similar.
I say that because i made the same spell for a Hermetic Sahir Ex Miscellanea.

6

I say his sell design is just fine for Elementalists. Other magi either cannot use his lab text, or they treat it as a higher level spell and the lab text only rovides a bonus equal to the original lower level.

7

Yep, just like Mysteries or other virtues/flaws that changes the spellcasting capacities.

8

Thats my take on it as well.

Then how do you handle complex spells that MUST include requisites due to multiple effects "cooperating" to create the end result?

9

As I see it, You need to decide whether the Elementalist magus gets to:

A) Avoid adding magnitudes for elemental requisites, when calculating spell level from guidelines. E.g. a CrAq(Ig) spell to create a great deal of hot water. Ignem isn't necessary for the spell to work (like it would be in a MuIg(Aq) spell to change a bonfire into water), the heat is an added feature, and thus costs a magnitude - but not for the elemntalist.

B) Avoid using the lowest Art when there are elemental requisites. E.g. the above CrAq(Ig) spell would use the Aq score, not the Ignem, even if it is lower.

So which is it? Or both?

I'd say A. B seems very powerful. This thing came up in my saga last monday, where the Elementalist is an Aquam specialist. He needed to keep warm under water, and ended up improvising a spell creating hot water constantly emenating from his body. We ruled that he wasn't 'penalized' for the Ignem requisite, so he used his Aquan score - the better of the two. But I'm having second thoughts, by now I think he should have used the lower, but in stead just not added a magnitude - which he already avoidded IIRC.
BTW this was a really funny spell, fitting this somewhat oddball Merinita magus perfectly. After he was done swimming in the icy winter lake, he went to tell his soldales about what he had found. The spell had D:Sun, because he had needed quite some time under water. So standing at the edge of camp, deliberately downhill from the campfire, he told his findings. But was a bit hard to take serious, since hot water constantly flowed from every part of his body, creating a lot of steam on this cold winter day. He also still has his Lungs of the FIsh running, so any water incidentally entering his mouth as he spoke was turned into air, very practical. In the spur of the moment I - as SG - rules that the grogs flocked to him to wash their dishes and socks.

10

Well, as a Major Virtue, I want the PC to feel like he is getting his "money's worth"... He's a Bonisagus, so producing spells that others have a hard time using might be a bit odd, though it if aids him in his original research, perhaps it balances out.

Also, for reference:

Elemental Magic
Major, Hermetic
You have been trained in the ability to manipulate raw elemental forms (Ignem, Auram, Terram, and Aquam) and view them as a connected whole rather than four separate Arts. Whenever you successfully study one of these Arts (that is, gain at least one experience point from study), you gain an additional experience point in each of the other three.

Your elemental magics are also more flexible than those of other magi - there is no disadvantage in adding elemental Form requisites to any elemental spell. If an Aquam, Auram, Ignem, or Terram spell has another spell as a requisite, you may ignore the requisite. You must still use the primary Art, even if the requisite is higher.

11

Both? Remember: "there is no disadvantage to adding elemental form requisites to any elemental spell".
Dropping either A or B would make it a disadvantage to add a requisite.
And it still IS a Major virtue.

:mrgreen:
LOL!

12

So, as long as the spell is Primarily one form, it doesn't matter what it is as Secondary form.

Additional question: It says: "If an Aquam, Auram, Ignem, or Terram spell has another spell (I'm betting this should have been "Form") as a requisite...". So it doesn't matter if the requisite form isn't one of the 4 elemtal forms, right?
"Curse of the Desert" PeAq(Co) is really just a PeAq for the Elementalist?
And "Lungs of the Fish" is a MuAq, with no Au req?

13

Well, I would say that those reqs are still there; it is only that the elementalist can ignore them.

I said earlier though that I feel such a spell is OTT. To clarify, what exactly is this spell going to do? I mena how does it work. The spell is still essentially an ignem spell - so tell me what it is doing that permits it to protect against all elemental forms. To me it just smacks of bundling several things together because you can... Explain in what way heatshield protects you from falling rocks... its gonna be pretty hot if it turns them to molten slag when they land on you and then slide off...

So for me, these are different spells. A spell that protects you from wind & rain would be ok I guess, but all 4 elemental forms is just too convinient a spell. Heck why not add a load of otehr forms in there too. Add herbam... its only a magnitude. A bit of spell mastery can overcome any penalty there.

14

That text is a direct continuation of the preceeding one, this one:
there is no disadvantage in adding elemental Form requisites to any elemental spell

And as i would also say it wouldnt make sense to ignore ANY requisites, i totally say oh yes it matters!

No.

Yes.

Absolutely agree.

15

Well, I'm a bit unsure what personal wards in general do. They seem, at their core, to just "Keep form X away from me". For an elemental magus to work more elements into a spell that just keeps things away seems ok, given the uses of requisites in various other Rego spells. Others non-elementalists I would indeed either not allow the spell to be made or put it forth as +3 magnitudes.

The magus, in preparation for the covenant's trip to Jerusalem, are working on spells that will aid their voyage. The elementalist is looking for a spell that will calm the skies and seas for a boat so that it might travel normally. I'm figuring he's looking at Rego Aq/Au... but i'm a little unsure if a spell works best or if an enchanted item works best for this purpose. Or is this a ward of some kind that protects the ship from bad weather? Regardless, it looks like another use of Aq/Au and his elemental mojo, but conceptually it seems sound.

16
17

Some spells developed by the elemental magus in my saga, Laurus Dionysus of Bonisagus. Laurus, after a particularly nasty Twilight episode in which he gained a large amount of Warping, gained the Celestial Magic virtue - thus the unusual durations of some of his spells. Laurus also likes to experiment, thus the Side Effects that plague some of his creations.

Blink of Calcinato
InAq[Au,Ig,Te] 15
Target: Ind, Range: Sight, Duration: Momentary
This spell, at a glance, determines the composition of an individual sized quantity of any element. It cannot note magical qualities, but can note false gold, poison in a glass of wine, the original form of ashes (generally speaking), and so on. Due to a side effect, the caster's eyes momentarily take on the appearance of the element gazed upon: fire if flame, watery orbs if Aquam, marble spheres if Terram, and misty pits if Auram, thus making the spell hard to use with subtlety.
(Base 4, +3 Sight)

Expressing the Golden Mean
MuAq(Ig) 25
Target: Ind, Range: Voice, Duration: Days
Causes fire to gain the properties of water, and water to gain the properties of flame. Thus, fire may flow, and water burn. Side Effect: Due to the warped nature of Coraldo's Lab, this spell causes the elements so effect to be become hissing, spitting, and angry, possibly breaking containers or causing +2 damage to any one nearby on a roll of 0 each round. Side Effect: Targets are given a golden sheen for the duration of the spell. In Coraldo's version of this smell, the scent of warm apple cider is quite strong.
(Base 4, +3 Days)

The Favor of Ceres
ReAq(Au, Ig, Te) 25
Protects a target against the elements, forbidding them from touching the caster. The target gains a +15 soak against flame and heat (but not light) - though they may still suffer from dehydration. The target is also immune to attacks that seek to damage him with stone, dirt or glass - though metal may still harm him. The target is also warded against mundane water touching him or moving him, though he can still sink or drown. He is likewise immune to lightning.
(Base: 10, +1 Touch, +2 Sun)

18

Wouldn't the Favor of ceres require a +1 magnitude for stone? Nice spells, BTW :slight_smile:

Cheers,
Xavi

19

The Terram component would be ReTe 5, +1 for Stone/Glass, which puts it at the 10 base that the Aquam spell uses as the main guideline for the spell. I was unsure how this would be expressed with 'spell notation', but since the math equated, I went with that as a part of the spell made possible with a requisite power. Perhaps I should have written the spell up as ReTe?

20

Normally multi-Form spells should use the highest guideline as a base, and add magnitudes for R/D/T/etc. on that. So I'd have called it using base 10, and then +1 mag for stone. But seeing as Elemental Magic by virtue of its concept doesn't get disadvantages by doing this...nice! My next magus'll have to be Elemenalist.