Adelbert, a "Magi of Hermes" look at intellego and Astrology

Games Discussion Ars Magica
361

Hi,

Finesse would be appropriate for any update to the map. I don't like Finesse in this instance either, because I don't like Finesse in just about any instance. But we have magic items in Covenants that require Finesse, IIRC, so there is precedent. If I need Finesse to milk a cow with a spell, or if I need Finesse for my Sling of Vilano spell, then why shouldn't I need it for items that do the same thing? And then why should a non-caster not need Finesse with these items where a magus does?

Non-magi can learn Finesse, after all.

There are no choices to be made, in the sense that there is exactly one correct solution, but the wrong thing can happen, and this process is so complicated that there are many opportunities for wrong things to occur.

I was walking through this because the word "image" had been used in this conversation in various contexts, with slightly different meanings and implications. So I'm agreeing that the fully-detailed illusion of ME is possible. I am also differentiating between the image that the animal sees and the illusion of ME, because...

Except that the animals know nothing of the 3d frame buffer, and utterly lack the reasoning abilities to correlate their notion of location to a place relative to Mythic Europe as a whole, let alone in miniature on some map.

They probably don't even have the reasoning abilities to always be aware of the location of everything they see, and perhaps not even really understand the idea of location at all.

The magic does this for you, and is very straightforward. I have Rego to take care of the mastering and Animal to take care of the beast. This is what ReAn does. (Some magi might answer that Hermetic Magic is that common language, mankind's best approximation thus far of the Language of Creation!)

Because once we bring modern physics into the conversation, everything falls apart. We'd also be creating vacuums with various Pe and Mu spells. (Hey, let's create a massive low-pressure weather system with a big PeAu, and eventually destroy the entire atmosphere.)

And...

Not for this. Here's my thinking:

When the appropriate Form and Technique are used on the appropriate Target, it is almost always best to let the magic win. So I can use CrIm to create a beautiful sound, even though I lack the skills to create that sound myself, or even to know what that sound is. I can use CrAn to create a wolf without mundane knowledge of wolf anatomy. I can use InAn to understand what kinds of animals are likely to live in some new environment in which I am stranded, and then make one of these with CrAn. Or just use a formulaic Cr(In)An to "create a venomous snake of a kind that can thrive in this place, as big as possible but no larger than Size +1, with the spell producing nothing if no such species exists." Level TBD, but the magic should handle it. Pe(In)Co to kill everyone in the room whose birthday is today? Fine.

But I cannot use ReHe to control a magus that happens to be clinging to a broomstick made to fly with magic. That requires Co, and the spell must target the magus as well as the broomstick.

Similarly, I can use In to discern the location of something, but the target must be that something, not a memory/image/whatever of that something in the mind of some animal.

So if the effect collected images from animals at specific locations, and then recorded those images with an indication of location and orientation to the master image, without correlating them into a whole, that would be fine; a user of the item could then choose a location and orientation and see what has been seen from there; different effects might be needed for this, but it is conceptually simpler. If the effect targeted the locations themselves, that would also be fine. But as soon as there is some part of the effect that is not targeted by the correct Form and Technique, there is no magic involved and there needs to be.

considers

It's about what I wrote just above.

My second reaction was "It feels so modern! Doesn't belong!" But within a few seconds I reconsidered. Why wouldn't a magus want to chart ME and then observe it? The effect might be informed by our modern sensibilities, but let's err on the side of saying it can belong and see what happens. So I'd obviously want the final spell description to be stripped of terms that feel too modern, such as "zoom in," because I'd want it to feel right. And if we have effectively invented Cartesian coordinates by the end of this process, I would suggest that the group involved consider whether this was desirable in their saga.

So I don't think it necessarily breaks anything... other than the magic system. I think that's part what these threads are about, at the power level your magi have reached: What can be done with Hermetic Magic? What cannot be? What does it take?

My first reaction was "The item seems too smart; I cannot put my finger on it but something is missing here." And I think I found it.

Anyway,

Ken

362

Yeah, this was my line of thinking. If a simple CrIm can make an illusion of the wizard standing still, and a more complex CrIm can make an image of the wizard running in circles... then I don't see why the 'changing image' can't be the perception of the spy moving along in Spain.

363

In the process of composing my thoughts to craft a post containing my exceptionally convincing arguments about why my previous design was effectivley flawless and making tiny tiny minuscule changes to improve clarity, :stuck_out_tongue: I came up with a design I think is better.

I'll discuss the changes after the revised item item:

Creation of the Diminutive World: I took Racoonmask's suggestion that this is just an image that moves. It doesn't need the muto requisite.

Gazing Within the Miniature I changed this so that rather than manipulating the original miniature it is creating a second image, I gave it an intellego requisite so that it can see/read the tiny details of the original.

Location of the Unwitting Surveyor: more or less unchanged

Reworking the Tiny World Using the minds of the animals was troublesome - the animal never saw the other side of that tree, how does he magic now how it looks?, Ken's issue about the animals not having a sufficiently clear idea about how far away an object is and its size is not sated in a way that I can get behind but there is a valid concern there. I instead decided to just have the effect collect the images in the vicinity of the AC and avoid all of that complication at the cost of loosing a tiny bit of mythic resonance. But what can he use for a target? Summoning the Distant Image uses target room but the spell doesn't actually restrict itself to being used inside of rooms this seemed cheap and I decided to use something different. Eyes of the Flame uses target individual for a fire and everything that the fire illuminates no special target just a 0 cost target individual. There's To See as through a Plethron Distant from Magi of Hermes which I'm quite fond of, but Adelbert's effect is quite different and this didn't feel right. I went for a special target which covered the arcane connection and its immediate surroundings - a pace or two in every direction, a bit like the eyes of the flame but at a higher magnitude. I then added five magnitudes for size to cover an area a bit over a half kilometer in diameter.

364

Hi,

Old problems solved, and now some new ones! I'll start with the simplest, which you might decide is not a problem at all:

Eyes of the Flame, though a core spell, is imo a bit problematic... but at least there is a direct relationship between the target (a fire) and the extra stuff: illuminated by the fire, in a sense touched by it, with the light of the fire perhaps making it possible to see the image. It's a tight and thematic connection.

Here, the suggestion is that if I have an AC to something, I can "collect the images of the targeted arcane connection and its surroundings"). Never mind (for now, because I do mind) that there are an infinite number of these images. With your new special target, and a general version of this effect, I can see everything there is to be seen within 500 paces of where I am, since I always have an AC to that. I can see through walls, into rooms, looking back toward the AC and from above. Heck, as I add magnitudes for size, as you have, I have a panopticon, letting me see the whole city, county, all of ME, the entire world, all using an AC to where I am right now.

This does not work for me at all, utterly breaking my idea of what an AC is.

YMMV.

If so, let's use the same target for PeCo, or In(Pe)Me (find the person in range of the AC to where I'm standing right now who is thinking the worst of me, and destroy his mind) or even just InMe "Naughty and Nice", which Santa casts every year using his AC to the North Pole (that's what he called his sanctum for some reason, perhaps suggesting that his covenant is somewhere in the western part of the Novgorod Tribunal, or perhaps he enchanted the effect into a pole) to assess how good everyone has been within range of the effect, which is everyone, since he added lots of magnitudes for size.

Anyway,

Ken

365

If that does come up I'm going to point you to a solution to Xeno's paradox.

For the spell equivalent to the item I provided it was 350 paces of the target not 500. It would also be at level 45. That doesn't seem out of balance for a level 45 spell? The spell doesn't help the caster sort through the images that he's collected. It is easier than going to all the places within a slow minute's walk of the caster in person, so it would provide some advantage in that area, but adapting the parameters from auram and aquam to be able to see through their respective forms to terram and hebam would give you a more powerful spell at a much lower level.

Those spells would be rituals, and as rituals I don't have so much of a problem with them. The device works because it uses a base 1 guideline.

If another effect of level 50 or lower using this target doesn't work for you, you can always declare it a ritual, page 115 tells us "Storyguides should use their discretion in declaring other spells Rituals"

You are also well within your rights to say that a special spell parameter does not work for a given spell. The special parameter of To See as through a Plethron Distant would have been a much lower level than the one I used and in some ways more powerful, but it wasn't appropriate for this enchantment. Use of a special parameter in one instance does not imply that the special parameter is usable in all instances

Having counter arguments is not the same as saying that I don't see any value in your objections.

I was rather sad to see the thematic link between what the "surveyors" saw and what was added to the miniature image of the world.

How about this for a target? The spell collects the total images for all of the objects that the creature targeted by the spell sees which are within 350 paces of the AC, and any portions of larger images which targeted creature sees that lie within 350 paces of the AC (Thus it could include the image of only part of a mountain, and still get the image of all sides of a tree).

This target is more thematic, it doesn't let the spell look inside of boxes, closed buildings, or other such things, and it is a bit less exploitable.

366

Hi,

That's not what I meant.

I mean that literally, there are infinite images. The effect does not specify which images, whether it's a 3D panorama from the AC, a top-down view, centered on the AC or on some point in range of the effect, just collecting images within range, of which there are infinitely many.

It's like collecting the irrational numbers, not like approaching a limit or asymptote.

Hmm. I just translated the half-kilometer to 500 paces. Either way.

My issue isn't balance. I think there's at least one version of this that can work, and should work. I don't yet think this is quite it.

I haven't yet talked about my search/sort issue. :slight_smile:/2

Unless put into an item.

No worries! I'm always wrong. :slight_smile:

And I do think that is better, a feature lost with this design. It also eliminates my "infinite images" problem. Gathering a series of images from the mind of the animal, which InAn can do (one snapshot every Moment, similar to Treading the Ashen Path), along with the animal's location and orientation, which InAn can do, is straightforward. InVi can give you a timestamp (when the effect was triggered.) Another InAm can even record which animal. CrIm can tag the images with this gathered information.

Updating a portion of the master image with theses images in miniature is Im. Choosing which portion to update is perhaps trickier, and you'll need InIm for selecting what you want to look at, based on <location, orientation, time, animal, etc>. InIm can do other manipulations too, perhaps allowing you to recreate the path of an animal, or play the images seen at <location, orientation> over a time range. (And with ReAn, you can get an animal exactly where you want it.)

At this point, you might not need to limit things to 350 paces. If EoF is your model, then a very bright fire can illuminate a whole lot, yet the spell level remains the same.

But I think that EoF, though a core spell, really needed "this spell does not conform entirely to Hermetic Theory".

Gathering what the animal sees using InAn seems more straightforward.

Just me.

Anyway,

Ken

367

We were talking about different things (I think). I was speaking of images of the sort that are created by hermetic imaginem magic. Things that share the location of their objects and interact with light to produce species. 3D, panorama, and top down don't apply to what this effect does. That's the primary reason I changed the effect away from the mind of the target and went with an actual volume defined by the Target. But, as we've seen before, I'm not (yet) great at communicating complex ideas.

Only if the high level effect shouldn't be a ritual for other reasons, these really should. (IMO)

That's not what the revised target is doing either. Instead it is using what the target sees to define an area to read the "Images" from so that the creation effect can copy them, (images like the creo imaginem spells, not images in the creature's mind).

(It was 350 paces in radius, so over a half kilometer in diameter - I worked out the area for "within a meter and a half of the AC" then multiplied it by 100,000 for five magnitudes, then computed the effective radius and rounded down to something, well, rounder)

368

Not putting the table aside, but working on other devices in parallel.

Adelbert spends a season creating this, despite using an overtime schedule and maxing out his 18 points of possible shape and material bonuses he still has to limit the effect more powerful faeries, use target scent rather than target hearing , and employ an astrologically linked enchantment to get the penetration that he wants.

This device would be used in conjunction with the gabbro matrix's intangible tunnels to give a several targets the ability to detect faeries and then use Poll of the Scattered Agents (the enchantment that acts as a sort of animal version of posing the silent question) to locate the faeries he'd be searching for (although this method is also capable of pulling up many false positives).

I think that it's cool that faeries of might lower than 15 are too small to be detected while faeries with might greater than 30 or 46 evade detection because the effect doesn't penetrate. Thus it only finds "medium sized" fae.

369

Another season with the help of Claritas he'll create this wand.

and in one season without Claritas's help

While intended to be used primarily with the intangible tunnels supplied by the Gabbro Matrix the fact that this item used some of Adelbert's best arts allowed him to create it with range sight and give Claritas the season off.

With uncertainty of about how the table of the tiny world will turn out, I've probably got one to three more seasons to do.

370

This lesser enchanted device may be the last one for the period depending upon what else goes on with the table

Edited to make it somewhat less confusing (I suspect I still have a ways to go).

371

One season to open, one season for Gazing within the Miniature, three for creation of the tiny world (two with an early riser routine), one season for Location of the Unwitting Surveyor, and one season (using a nocturnal schedule) for Reworking the Tiny World.

This version took fewer seasons than the previous version.

I had previously had Adelbert learn this spell primarily for the similar spells bonus.

I'm going to have him skip that for now.

I gave Adelbert 24 seasons this period and the work so far takes up only 20, leaving 4 for other stuff.
Table of the Tiny World 7
Gabbro Matrix of Connection 4
Retrieval of the Feathered Agent 1
Shears of Indirect Trimming 1
Crown of Inhuman Perspective 1
Bag of Endless Squirrels 1
Stick of Bestial Obedience 1
Stench of Feigned Malice 1
Wand of Mnemonic Engraving 1
Wand of Animal Recollections 1
Sphere of Inadvertent Interrogations 1

372

Adelbert (unassisted) spends a season opening more capacity in his talisman. The talisman goes from having two pawns open of 33 to having 24 pawns open of 55. He access the attunement for Agate to gain a +3 on spells dealing with air.

Adelbert spends a season instilling this enchantment in his talisman, (also unassisted):

He opens the attunment +10 against demons.

373

Adelbert and Claritas spend a season making this device to exchange for a device from a fellow magus.

in exchange they will get this device for use through the Gabbro Matrix

374

In the final season of this period, without the assistance of Claritas, Adelbert enchants the following device.

Adelbert wanted a way to quickly get an animal to a place for which he does not have an arcane connection.

375

I'm curious as to where you got the base for this spell; if it did short teleports every step, or telekinetically threw them further, it would make sense for me perhaps; Also, this description you've used seems to feel more like a muto spell then a rego.

376

I stole the rego corpus guideline for transport the target instantly 5 paces. It's a bit of a stretch but it was the closest thing I found. I was going for a feeling of the magic pushing the creature through space rather than a muto animal effect.

377

TME page 107 has expanded Re(Fo) movement. ReAn ends up at the same level as you used tho.

378

I can get that, and certainly like the 'rego pushing' feel of it. I just don't think that making a bird fly x5 as fast is the same effect as flinging a rat through the air. I might be biased, but I kind of think that you're enhancing the animal, so should be Muto (or Creo if its enhancing within natural animal limits), rather than Rego.. unless you actually are just making a squirrel catapult, in which case I'm totally okay with it - though the speed the creature moves with the spell shouldn't be tied to the creature's normal speed... a swift falcon will move the same speed as a three-legged shrew when catapulting, because the rego is doing the moving, not the creature's natural state.

379

I switched to the level 15 move a target quickly in any direction. It feels a bit of a high choice in that the directions that creatures move is more limited than any direction but it's overall no to bad of a fit. I gave more detailed language to show that a muto animal effect was not intended. I make the movement speed independent of the critter

380

How I see this whole thing working:

The Grand Observatory of Adelbert is a cavernously huge and exceptionally well lit room in Adelbert's Covenant (suitable for setting cool scenes with the PC's in). It was the focus of this fifteen year period and it grew out of a lot of stuff which he had worked on previously.

The room has 5 major features of interest

The Aviary of the Watchful Covenant, this enchanted device (check the character sheet ) creates flocks of ravens and gives them complex instructions it has an instilled enchantment to search for information in the minds of the animals that touch it but this has largely been replaced by the gabbro matrix. The aviary sits next to a large window that allows the birds to pass in to and out of the observatory to the outside. It is also a place where there is occasionally bird poop. When this device is use to create a group of birds generally three arcane connections are taken from each individual bird for later use.

The Gabbro Matrix of Connection,AC's harvested from the ravens created by the Aviary of the Watchful Covenant are placed into the Gabbro Matrix of connection in a systematic way. This allows the people that Adelbert has working for him to quickly survey all of the available targets and use the Opening the Not Completely Intangible Tunnel enchantment to further control and augment the animals with additional magic. While targeted animals do get quite warped in short order, they are as a rule spell effects themselves and disappear after duration moon anyway.

The Board - the board is not an enchanted device it is in fact, as the name would suggest, a large board. On this board are a series of hooks that exactly mirror the holes in the gabbro matrix. On the hooks are both wax tablets containing notes regarding the information concerning the animal who's connection is in the matching hole and a small pouch containing the unused arcane connections.

The Table of the Diminutive World Because you want your PC's gathered around a huge model of their objective, arguing about what they should do, that's a scene that's worth playing out.

The cabinet of enchanted implements. This is a set of shelves containing the rest of the enchanted devices that are used with the observatory, the place for each device is clear, labeled and both Adelbert and his employees are fastidious in their discipline to not leave the devises in any other places. This self contains
Shears of Indirect Trimming
Crown of Inhuman Perspective
Bag of Endless Squirrels
Stick of Bestial Obedience
Stench of Feigned Malice
Wand of Mnemonic Engraving
Wand of Animal Recollections
Sphere of Inadvertent Interrogations
Wand of Makeshift Fire Drakes
Glove of Animal Celerity

While with the use of the unlimited arcane tunnels provided by the Gabbro Matrix of Connection Adelbert could use most of his spells at a distance some of the most relevant ones are:
Retrieval of the Feathered Agent
Cloud of Gold and Ebony
Coterie of Burly Advocates(a squirrel can be used to ferry AC's of the bears back to the covenant)
Sight Hounds of the Order
Open the Tome of the Animal's Mind
Mastering the Unruly Beast
Commanding the Harnessed Beast
Summoning the Distant Image

In practice I see the observatory being manned by one or two custos who run it most of the time and make requests to Adelbert when they need his help, most frequently for teleportation of animals.

Also it's so much easier for Adelbert to gather AC's from a flock of newly created ravens that he'd be kind of a prick not to do so. I posted this spell a few weeks ago. While written with thought to the ravens from the Aviary, it would work just as well with any group of animals:

I imagine that he'd cast it three times to get three connections from each creature in a group.

I think it would work best for day to day functioning with only 120 ravens. 120 ravens is the output of the aviary for 4 days. specifically two days after the full moon and two days after the new moon - that way even the days after the setting of the full or new moon the observatory would have 90 birds in the air. Also it means that most of the time (6/7th's of the time) an additional flock of ravens is available at a moment's notice. The ravens are, even if there is no other need, constantly used for updating the map. Obviously he observatory can employ a whole lot more animals when needed. By use of the other devices and spells, the controlled creatures could also detect thoughts within hearing range of any of the animals, detect faeries that the animals can smell, or detect vis that the animals can see.

Use of only 120 animals allows the surveying ability of the Gabbro matrix to finish reading the minds of the animals in just two minutes. If the custos want to enchant all of the animals through the matrix it wouldn’t be too strenuous to get through it in a half hour, and much faster if they’ve trained.

When something of interest is found Adelbert can use Retrieval of the Feathered Agent to deposit a few extra ravens or squirrels in the vicinity. He could use Summoning the distant image on the critters or the custos can use the Crown of Inhuman Perspective.

By use of the Shears of Indirect Trimming controlled animals can grab AC’s from native, non-creo magic created animals and use them for their purposes. Controlled creatures could also be instructed to grab items that would be AC’s to locations (Such as picking leaves to serve as an AC to a tree). After grabbing an AC an animal and its new AC can be collected using Retrieval of the Feathered Agent.

When Adelbert wishes to converse, he can use Summoning the distant image often along with a magic to maintain concentration for him such as his talisman’s Magically Attentive Talisman enchantment or the spell Minute’s Respite then use non-fatiguing spontaneous magic to cast a creo imaginem spell to allow him to carry on his side of the conversation.

While the Wand of Makeshift Fire Drakes can be exceedingly destructive to some targets, it can't be used directly against anything with magic resistance higher than 2. Also, the Table of the Diminutive World's image collection ability fails against anything with magic resistance at all. While the controlled creatures can see and interact with magical targets, things with MR won't show up on miniature to be examined.

With this set up, I see him having tools to let him find and interact with most anything that is within a 14 day raven flight of his covenant, and thus be an interesting NPC to have players interact with.