Evil has a place in Ars because in mythic Europe, there is evil. No one would ever say "There is no right or wrong, only difference of opinion." D&D made it so easy, but reality is not as black and white.
My storyteller put alot of work into the creation of his saga. I felt it was only right if I put the same amount of work into my character creation.
I love anything that encourages me to study history, mythology, and philosophy and speak Latin.
I don't think anyone walks around thinking they are evil. I don't think Hitler woke up every morning and said to him self what sort of evil can I do today?
Oh, it has been done. H.H. Holmes did it and there have been many others like him.
Well, in the strictly medieval concept we are looking at, sure, you are evil. Virtually everyone is evil. Saints are rare, and in the real world there is no Neutral Alignment. Neutral is Evil for Dummies. That is to say, being utterly unconcerned by the consequences of your actions, not trying to do harm or good for anyone, is a form of weak and silly evil according to the Church, and they are the moral arbiters in period.
Your character's evil. The question is, does your character care, and try to minimise the harm she does, and feel sorry for it afterwards, and confess it (which washes her clean of her sins) or does she not?
Your character's evil. The question is, does your character care, and try to minimise the harm she does, and feel sorry for it afterwards, and confess it (which washes her clean of her sins) or does she not?
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No she doesn't. She hears and understands the fear and anguish of a mouse right before she pops it in her mouth and eats it. She feels no remorse. One of her spells might scare people to death. I don't think she would see that any differently than the mouse. She's not malicious at all, just cold blooded when it comes to matters of life and death.
I didn't even think about confession! That's a really good point to bring up. I don't understand how confessions works, having never been catholic. I'll look that up. Thanks!
What I wrote is: Why evil has a place in Ars Magica "Evil" is an antiquated....
What I MEANT to write was: WHILE evil has a place in Ars Magica....
I slapped a capitol E on Evil to suggest the Gamer idea of evil.
A lack of clarity on my part. Sorry.
I do believe evil has a place in Ars Magica, but I felt the topic was being approached as if it were tag that should be written on a character sheet someplace in the same way alignments were
The reason Ars doesn't have alignements is it doesn't need them. Certainly in Mythic Europe one could argue that all characters are born into sin and are evil at birth.
Certainly they can peform pennance and constantly work to lessen the evil they commit. But it seems this discussion was about playing someone Evil (capital E).
I still feel it's more appropriate in Ars Magica to simply play the character without a label such as good, evil, or dare I say it, 'neutral' and simply explore the reprocussions and ramifications of the choices they make.
If you want to play a diabolocist that tortures babies for breakfast go ahead and play one. Don't be surprised when (Insert Anyone Here) tries to stop you.
It's very easy to make something horrible and know it's evil. Everyone knows Capital E evil. It's actually very easy to fight because you have the confidence to know it's Evil.
It's much more interesting to confuse the matter and place doubt into the subject. Consider the TV the Shield where the views essentially root for a crooked cop that cheats, lies, tortures, kills, AND puts bad guys behind bars. Vic Mackie doesn't have Evil slapped his character sheet.
I think the first step in exploreing evil to remove the premise that your playing an evil character from the character sheet. Don't talk casually about how your going to explore an evil character.
Instead ask the group what they need your character to do. The covenant needs X, fine supply it. But do it stealing it. The covenant needs Y, fine but do it by extorting it. The covenants needs vis, fine get it from a demon. Then when the entire covenant is some manner apart of your crimes. Then have the Q's or the Church come in. The players may defend your actions as 'reasonable' or at least want to cover up your choices.
Now there's an exploration of evil that merits pursuit.
What I wrote is: Why evil has a place in Ars Magica "Evil" is an antiquated....
What I MEANT to write was: WHILE evil has a place in Ars Magica....
I slapped a capitol E on Evil to suggest the Gamer idea of evil.
A lack of clarity on my part. Sorry.
Oh, I see what you meant. I totally got you wrong. Sorry bout that. I suck at folk ken.
I do believe evil has a place in Ars Magica, but I felt the topic was being approached as if it were tag that should be written on a character sheet someplace in the same way alignments were
Yes thats exactly what I'm trying to avoid.
The reason Ars doesn't have alignements is it doesn't need them. Certainly in Mythic Europe one could argue that all characters are born into sin and are evil at birth.
Certainly they can peform pennance and constantly work to lessen the evil they commit. But it seems this discussion was about playing someone Evil (capital E).
It was more about trying to define exactly what "E"vil is.
I still feel it's more appropriate in Ars Magica to simply play the character without a label such as good, evil, or dare I say it, 'neutral' and simply explore the reprocussions and ramifications of the choices they make.
If you want to play a diabolocist that tortures babies for breakfast go ahead and play one. Don't be surprised when (Insert Anyone Here) tries to stop you.
It's very easy to make something horrible and know it's evil. Everyone knows Capital E evil. It's actually very easy to fight because you have the confidence to know it's Evil.
It's much more interesting to confuse the matter and place doubt into the subject. Consider the TV the Shield where the views essentially root for a crooked cop that cheats, lies, tortures, kills, AND puts bad guys behind bars. Vic Mackie doesn't have Evil slapped his character sheet.
OOOOH GOOD EXAMPLE!
I think the first step in exploreing evil to remove the premise that your playing an evil character from the character sheet. Don't talk casually about how your going to explore an evil character.
Instead ask the group what they need your character to do. The covenant needs X, fine supply it. But do it stealing it. The covenant needs Y, fine but do it by extorting it. The covenants needs vis, fine get it from a demon. Then when the entire covenant is some manner apart of your crimes. Then have the Q's or the Church come in. The players may defend your actions as 'reasonable' or at least want to cover up your choices.
Now there's an exploration of evil that merits pursuit.
Yes, thats what I am planning on doing. My story teller reads all this. I think my poor little Bjornaer might be totally screwed.
Thanks for your insight!
I don't know if it is worth a look , and it is not a medieval perspective by any means.
The Complete Idiot's Guide to Understanding Catholicism, 3rd Edition
The wiki entry : Confession
The Catholic Encyclopedia
The Sacrament of Penance
I go away for a few months and Ravenscoft doubles my posts and is a freaking Sovereign Regnant! Jeez-us!
It's like I was in one of those rocketships where the twin brother ages and yadda yadda yadda...
Yeah those are extremely helpful! Thank you. Firth 5 told me to read Thomas Aquinas too, so I have that also.
No she doesn't. She hears and understands the fear and anguish of a mouse right before she pops it in her mouth and eats it. She feels no remorse. One of her spells might scare people to death. I don't think she would see that any differently than the mouse. She's not malicious at all, just cold blooded when it comes to matters of life and death.
I didn't even think about confession! That's a really good point to bring up. I don't understand how confessions works, having never been catholic. I'll look that up. Thanks!
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The thing that stops animals being evil is that they aren't people. Bjornaers cross this line, a bit. They are animals who are people. At that point, medieval theology, which is exclusively about people who are people, starts to break down. If you accept that your mage is a human, then if she goes around hurting people, and doesn't care, sure, she's evil. The epople around her look at her and go "Is this what we expect?" and answer "No way."
Now, in the Church, there's a method for those who are genuinely contrite - that is, really and truly sorry - to be reconciled with God. They do this by confessing their sins, generally to a minister of the religion, and gaining absolution. They may be tasked with a epenential work, which is a sort of learning aid.
So, yes, your character's evil, but so is pretty much everyone who lives by war. As to scaring people to death, that's not, of itself, evil. Evil in medieval theology has to be deliberate. If you know you -will- kill them, or can reasonbly see that you might, you are meant to refrain. You aren't, howver, responsible for accidents that people could not have forseen.
The Wiki entry : Evil
You might argue that turning yourself into an animal might be a more grave sin than eating a mouse. The heirarchy of man and beasts is by divine providence, so man controlling and using beasts, or a predator killing its prey, are in the natural order of things, and as such not neccesarily condemning - using magic to change form and strive against this heirarchy however....
And then I have to add; this is an interesting thread to read but some of the posts are quite hard to decipher bc of chaotic or completely missing use of quoting - can I gentle suggest either to use the HTML codes or just at least use regular citation marks when citating other posters?
I'm sorry! I will learn how to do it right. Ancora Imparo = I am still learning. 
Wow. I feel kinda like I do when I've been looking everywhere for my glasses and they turn out to be on top of my head.
That somewhat implies that all Bjornear are doomed to Hell. Unless they are willing to give up their ability to transform, then they are never capable of true repentance. Very interesting.
My point was intended as more generic one - that a bird eating a mouse isn't really that big a deal. But magic in generel is - not only the heartbeast - at least when it comes to dogma.
One idea I briefly toyed with when Ancient Magic came out and was discussed here is that the Ritual of Twelve Years might be an experience of the same order as that of the tasting of the fruit of knowledge, barring access to the garden of Eden to all of the Children of Birna on the same grounds as the "sons of Adam and daughters of Eve" (and solving the question of what would happen to a Bjornaer magus going there again and eating one of the fruits). Joining House Bjornaer might thus in and of itself be a sin, but once that deed is done, changing forms wouldn't be, since the magus now also is an animal - there's no turning back from it. However, he'd remain accountable for his every action, as a man and as a beast, since unlike mere animals, he does know good from evil.
Original Sin x 2 ? 
If someone was to find a way to commit the original sin twice, it would probably be me.
How important is it within the Order of Hermes to adhere to the Christian faith? Is her only danger from mundanes and the Church?
I'd say it's not important at all in the Order.. bear in mind, there are plenty of mages who follow other religions in the order.
Now, I'd say they probably wouldn't want you to go out and annoy the religions, but you certainly don't have to adhere to them